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Subject***UPDATE CAPS - The Classic Amiga Preservation Society new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/03/03 07:59 AM




o New work-in-progress report
o New User Plugin with added support for Speedlock timing, and memory mapped image files to allow loading of IPF images from within compressed archives.

http://www.caps-project.org





SubjectDragon's Breath released!! Never thought it could be *NT* Reply to this message
Posted byHazard
Posted on06/03/03 09:18 AM



>
> o New work-in-progress report
> o New User Plugin with added support for Speedlock timing, and memory mapped
> image files to allow loading of IPF images from within compressed archives.
>
> http://www.caps-project.org
>





SubjectInfo new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/03/03 07:03 PM




Fortunately, with the technology we have been working on, any disk is just a "custom format" (even the standard ones). We describe the format, and it works. Some are harder that others to do though obviously, if you look at the WIP it describes "Speedlock" - the protection on Dragons Breath. It certainly was not trivial.

But anyway, describing of disk formats is exactly what was needed to originally master the disk in the first place. This may also come in handy in a few months time. ;) We need to describe the disk formats too, but I'll leave the explanation as to why to one of the older WIPs. (if you are intested, I will find which one).

BTW, this doesn't effect dumping of disks - that is generic - our solution can dump anything. The format description comes later.

BTW 2, Dragons Breath is the biggest release yet. Basically because of the size of the manuals...





SubjectRe: Info new Reply to this message
Posted byHobbesAtPlay
Posted on06/04/03 01:24 PM



>
> Fortunately, with the technology we have been working on, any disk is just a
> "custom format" (even the standard ones). We describe the format, and it works.
> Some are harder that others to do though obviously, if you look at the WIP it
> describes "Speedlock" - the protection on Dragons Breath. It certainly was not
> trivial.
>
> But anyway, describing of disk formats is exactly what was needed to originally
> master the disk in the first place. This may also come in handy in a few months
> time. ;) We need to describe the disk formats too, but I'll leave the
> explanation as to why to one of the older WIPs. (if you are intested, I will
> find which one).
>
> BTW, this doesn't effect dumping of disks - that is generic - our solution can
> dump anything. The format description comes later.
>
> BTW 2, Dragons Breath is the biggest release yet. Basically because of the size
> of the manuals...

Very cool...

Not sure why this never makes the front page, as preservation like this should be rewarded with *at least* a nod and a link. I guess you've been blacklisted because of your *evil* countdown, nevermind that it actually counted down to something worthwhile ;) Or perhaps once there's a Linux-compatible method of using IPF images in UAE, TkChris will start reporting...

Keep up the good work, as it is greatly appreciated, even if by a less vocal crowd.

By the way, is there an up-to-date list of wanted games, and/or a list of required hardware/software for DIY dumps (i.e. what specific hardware configuration is necessary to dump a game, and is the software you use to generate a raw capture or a "cooked" IPF freely available for use) ?

H@P





SubjectMuch More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/05/03 05:49 AM




> Not sure why this never makes the front page, as preservation like this should be rewarded with *at least* a nod and a link.

Me neither! :(

> I guess you've been blacklisted because of your *evil* countdown, nevermind that it actually counted down to something worthwhile ;)

Evil countdown? I loved the countdown! :) Is this some immense faux-par in the emulation world?

But yes, the difficulty I find getting them to post would indicate being blacklisted for reasons that escape me. Even when there was apparently no news to post it wasn't being posted...

Oh well.

> Or perhaps once there's a Linux-compatible method of using IPF images in UAE, TkChris will start reporting...

As soon as the WinUAE sources are ported to Linux (or the UAE sources are updated with all the changes done to WinUAE) we will do a port to Linux asap. Apart from not supporting the CAPS plugin, the current version of the base UAE has serious gaps in its emulation of the Amiga's disk and CIA emulation. As-is it would not be able to run most original Amiga games anyway. The situation is exactly the same for a port to the Amiga itself.

Until then, people will have to use WINE on Linux unfortunately. :(

> Keep up the good work, as it is greatly appreciated, even if by a less vocal crowd.

Thank you. :)

> By the way, is there an up-to-date list of wanted games,

Well the games on the wanted list are certainly current, though the rest of items are not really. However, these are games that need a special mention since good versions may be very hard to get, or they have been requested by their authors.

The dump database is what you are after, and unfortunately it still is not ready yet. It shouldn't take much more effort - just time.

There is an exciting development you may be interested in though. I will announce it here when more details are available.

> and/or a list of required hardware/software for DIY dumps (i.e. what specific hardware configuration is necessary to dump a game,

Dumps are generated using our dumping tools. This makes a special raw bit stream of the disk. We are not talking MFM encoded here, we are talking about the actual 0's and 1's stored on the disk. So basically, the encoding (MFM, FM, GCR, MFM2, etc.) does not matter. If it was encoded using anything else (see the previous WIP about the Psygnosis encoding) it would be captured in just the same way.

The dumping tools are sent to anybody that needs them, the only reason they are not on the page is because we need to tell people certain things to make sure any dumps are the best condition possible, For example, people's system and drive is tested first for suitability.

The requirements are:

A 68020 CPU or above. Complicated digital signal processing is done, which requires are relatively powerful CPU. Unfortunately, this was something the Amiga was never designed for, (there was would not have been much use for it then anyway) and thus we cannot make use of any of the Amiga's custom hardware - only raw CPU power.

Minimum of 2Mb of RAM if dumping directly to another computer (using PC2Amiga). However 5Mb of RAM (though 8 or above is recommended) is needed if dumping to HD. We need to turn off DMA to get an accurate read, and then, as all disk based data transfers use the CPU, you need to dump to RAM before it can be copied to the HD. This is done by the dumping tools automatically though.

Kickstart: The actual tool that does the dumping only needs KS 1.3, however, the scripts wrapping the tool need KS2.0+, and do a lot of the admin work for you. So while it is possible to work under KS1.3 it is command line, and not really recommended.

> and is the software you use to generate a raw capture or a "cooked" IPF freely available for use) ?

Raw capture, yes. These are then sent to us so we can check for errors, or modified (!) disks to ensure any release is 100% perfect to how it was originally mastered - how it was meant to be. Indeed, any dump from a disk that is not perfect will not be released. We will just have to hunt for another.

Unfortunately, you cannot generate actual IPF's for several reasons better explained by one of the WIPs, but basically:

You can't create CAPS IPF images without a lot of knowledge about magnetic recording theory, disk formats, and reverse engineering techniques to make IPF files and actually expect them to work. Remember, the game industry tried every trick available to stop people copying disks - and they succeeded to a certain extent (I am not talking about cracking - that changes the game to work on a normal Amiga formatted disk and hence is a different kettle of fish).

You also need to describe the physical layout of the disk, and unless you have any practice with Freeform (the disk description languages used for Trace commercial mastering machines) you don't have much hope. Even then, these people were provided with the details - we need to reverse-engineer them by analysation of the raw dump.

Not easy!

Also, don't forget, IPF images were designed to be mastered to disk, not just played in emulators. Part of what we are doing is what the duplicators had to do to write the disks in the first place. :)

I am not saying I personally have this knowledge. I certainly don't! However, people in CAPS do, and they come from the games industry.

But, it is actually good this way - because you know that every IPF file you see has gone through rigorous testing and is certified by us to be a perfect representation of the original media. We don't really see the point in replicating what has happened with ADF's in that so many of them do not work, or fully work.

In summary, we can't let people do that even if we wanted to - but we don't really want to anyway. :)

Any more questions, just let me know. :)





SubjectCountdown new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/05/03 05:55 AM



Countdown

BTW - The countdown was done because we were so close to making a first release, but we were not quite there yet. It was not done in any intention of making people wait, we just wanted to let people know how close we were without giving the game away.

Is that so wrong? ;)





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted byHobbesAtPlay
Posted on06/05/03 02:10 PM



> > I guess you've been blacklisted because of your *evil* countdown, nevermind
> that it actually counted down to something worthwhile ;)
>
> Evil countdown? I loved the countdown! :) Is this some immense faux-par in the
> emulation world?


This was my interpretation of the general view when the countdown showed up on your page.

I *loved* the countdown, because I knew it was something worth waiting for... not some silly web page re-design, or release of an unstable and nearly useless *commercial* emulator...

Yes, there is some bitterness associated with countdowns, and I think you got caught up in the bad vibe.


> But yes, the difficulty I find getting them to post would indicate being
> blacklisted for reasons that escape me. Even when there was apparently no news
> to post it wasn't being posted...


I don't think it's personal. I think this site has some good news posters, but it's mostly sporadic posting. Understandable: they have lives; they don't get paid for this; they do it because they want to; and they generally end up posting what interests them. Perhaps they have no appreciation for the Amiga, or perhaps they just keep missing the news and by the time they get it, it's *really old* news.

You do have a following regardless of the front page support.


> Until then, people will have to use WINE on Linux unfortunately. :(


Understood. TkChris is the least sporadic of the posters, but he usually sticks with open-source Linux-compatible news. Windows-only solutions seem to get his penguin feathers ruffled ;)


> The requirements are:
>
> A 68020 CPU or above.
>
> Minimum of 2Mb of RAM if dumping directly to another computer (using PC2Amiga).
> However 5Mb of RAM (though 8 or above is recommended) is needed if dumping to
> HD.
>
> Kickstart: The actual tool that does the dumping only needs KS 1.3, however, the
> scripts wrapping the tool need KS2.0


Are there any special requirements for the drive? Controllable speed... density... who knows what else? Or can a stock Amiga drive do the job? I'm thinking not, but who knows what the A1010 & built-in A4000 floppy drives are capable of...


> > and is the software you use to generate a raw capture or a "cooked" IPF freely
> available for use) ?
>
> Raw capture, yes.
>
> Unfortunately, you cannot generate actual IPF's for several reasons


Centralized control is a good thing. Keeps the quality high, but the backlog must be *huge*.


H@P


SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/06/03 04:37 AM



> > Evil countdown? I loved the countdown! :) Is this some immense faux-par in the
> > emulation world?
>
> This was my interpretation of the general view when the countdown showed up on
> your page.

Oh well, you live and learn. :)

> I *loved* the countdown, because I knew it was something worth waiting for...
> not some silly web page re-design, or release of an unstable and nearly useless
> *commercial* emulator...

How did you know? ;)

> Yes, there is some bitterness associated with countdowns, and I think you got
> caught up in the bad vibe.

Yes, I guess those poor countdowns have been abused over the years.

> I don't think it's personal. I think this site has some good news posters, but

I would hope it is not personal. I don't think we know any of them!

> it's mostly sporadic posting. Understandable: they have lives; they don't get
> paid for this; they do it because they want to; and they generally end up
> posting what interests them.

Of course... I wouldn't have mentioned it if you hadn't. ;)

> Perhaps they have no appreciation for the Amiga,

Yes, I believe it is because they are not Amiga people. And you certainly are an Amiga person if you ever owned one! Apart from the occasional WinUAE news, I never see any Amiga news on Retrogames at all. Well catweasel stuff gets posted, but that is because of the Linux tool. ;)

> or perhaps they just keep missing the news and by the time they get it, it's
> *really old* news.

It was 2 days old when I posted it. I posted on the day, but either my post got removed (unlikely), or I forgot to hit the confirm button. I usually try to post on the day.

But either way, I have got used to it. I don't bother mailing them personally anymore since I know it won't be posted. It's a shame because when it is posted on Retrogames, we get usually double site traffic, and lots more people willing to help - which is what really counts.

If there is something really important (like something this weekend) I think I will try really hard to get them to post. Maybe I will have better luck on IRC or something...

Don't get excited by above btw, it is nothing major, just some very important feedback we want to get from as many people as possible.

Please don't speculate on what. :) We'll try and do it today or tomorrow.

> You do have a following regardless of the front page support.

That is nice to hear. Indeed, the amount of quality mail we recieve does seem to indicate this. We have also been very lucky in that we only seem to have attracted people who are obviously intelligent, generally interested in what we do, and want to help.

We have have had *very* few mails that I would call undesirable (other than spam of course).

> > Until then, people will have to use WINE on Linux unfortunately. :(
>
> Understood. TkChris is the least sporadic of the posters, but he usually sticks
> with open-source Linux-compatible news. Windows-only solutions seem to get his
> penguin feathers ruffled ;)

Reminds me of myslef and talking to ST/PC users a few years ago. ;)

But I don't blame him, but unfortunately, this is completely out of our control. Once WinUAE is retro-ported back to a gcc environment, we will be far less limited with the platforms we can support. We have very little time after CAPS, otherwise we would probably do it ourselves.

The only other path is the mastering solution, but unfortuntely, we have some other things to finish up first.

> Are there any special requirements for the drive? Controllable speed...
> density... who knows what else? Or can a stock Amiga drive do the job? I'm
> thinking not, but who knows what the A1010 & built-in A4000 floppy drives are
> capable of...

Oh no, nothing special needed... We should put this in the FAQ, it seems many people think this is the case??

The initial thought that the founder of CAPS started with was, "If the games themselves can read the data needed to pass their protection checks, it *must* be possible."

Unfortuneately for him, it turned out very complicated (it was expected though), because it is all very well for a game to get data that is knows how to read, but doing this in a generic way for any data is a different kettle of fish. But the technical solution was finished over one and a half years ago now, so we have been able to get on with the actual dumping and analysing of those dumps ever since.

Basically, the trick is this. The Amiga is able to *read* data written at different speeds, if you know what you are doing and it is written within certain limits (this goes for the games that want to read it just the same). But it cannot *write* at anything other than the normal speed. Hence copy protection taking advantage of this was a good choice.

Density protection is just one kind of protection though, there are numous (and inventive!) ways that the developers/publishers/duplicators/security firms used to protect their games / games for their clients.

Your built-in A4000 drive will work fine. As will any Amiga drive, just as long as they stand up to our "quality dump assurance" tests. But most drives are usually in good working order.

> Centralized control is a good thing. Keeps the quality high, but the backlog
> must be *huge*.

Your not kidding!

We are looking to see what we can do about that... See above.





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted bysmf
Posted on06/06/03 10:03 AM



> But it cannot *write* at anything other than the normal speed. Hence copy protection
> taking advantage of this was a good choice.

You can vary the speed enough to write Mac disks by playing around with an extenal clock on the genlock port. There was an adaptor back in the day which did this, it screwed up the display when it was writing though :-)

I was going to buy one, but never got round to it.

smf





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/06/03 11:41 AM




Hi smf,

> You can vary the speed enough to write Mac disks by playing around with an
> extenal clock on the genlock port. There was an adaptor back in the day which
> did this, it screwed up the display when it was writing though :-)

I think I remember it. Didn't it come as part of Emplant (mac emu/hw card) or something?

Anyway, I asked the tech guy about this and unfortunately, using that particular technique is not good enough to write "Real Amiga Protections" or RAP (tm) ;)

There are various reasons for this, I expect it is because you would not be able to get fine enough control, you need exact timing (really really exact, "cycle exact") and probably other reasons. If your interested, just drop us a mail, I am sure he would elaborate.

But it doesn't matter, we are committed to making a (do-it-yourself) mastering device that will write any protection, but it will take some time because we are busy on other things at the moment. This fully fledged mastering device is likely to be of similar, if not better quality than the mastering machines of the time. Of course it will cost a "little less" to build than the £15 000 odd that they were... ;) We will provide full hardware specs and software of course.

Fiath.

P.S. I don't know if you remember, but we (along with a load of other people) went to a retro games shop in London a couple of years ago. Problem is, I really can't remember where it was, or what it was called. Any ideas? Its where DZ bought Radient Silvergun for his Saturn... I don't remember seeing any Amiga games there, but I would quite like to have another look...





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted bysmf
Posted on06/09/03 09:21 AM



> I think I remember it. Didn't it come as part of Emplant (mac emu/hw card) or
> something?

I don't think so, I'm not sure if any emulator supported it either. I hate to have to go through all the old amiga magazines to find it...

> P.S. I don't know if you remember, but we (along with a load of other people)
> went to a retro games shop in London a couple of years ago.

Damn, that means I have met you & have absolutely no idea of who you are :-)

> Problem is, I really can't remember where it was, or what it was called. Any ideas?

Computer Exchange - Retro, it's just round the corner from their other store which is on tottenham court road ( the last time I went I had to ask them for directions ).

> I don't remember seeing any Amiga
> games there, but I would quite like to have another look...

I was there a few weeks ago, picked up a copy of starblade for the 3do for 2 quid. I'm almost certain there were no games. I have some originals though, not sure if any of them are rare or anything but maybe I ought to try dumping them.

smf





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) new Reply to this message
Posted byFiath
Posted on06/10/03 03:44 AM



> > I think I remember it. Didn't it come as part of Emplant (mac emu/hw card) or
> > something?
>
> I don't think so, I'm not sure if any emulator supported it either. I hate to
> have to go through all the old amiga magazines to find it...

No, don't worry about it, I was just interested. We can't use it anyway as I said...

> > P.S. I don't know if you remember, but we (along with a load of other people)
> > went to a retro games shop in London a couple of years ago.
>
> Damn, that means I have met you & have absolutely no idea of who you are :-)

Hehe :)

I went with a bunch of you guys to the Namco arcade one night, probably 1-2 years ago now - UKVAC people, Toby, DZ, Logigx, etc. I ended up going to get a pizza and getting back when the bloody thing closed, but nevermind! Then we crashed round to DZ's for the night.

> Computer Exchange - Retro, it's just round the corner from their other store
> which is on tottenham court road ( the last time I went I had to ask them for
> directions ).

Cool! Thanks. I work nesr Oxford Circus now, so it is rather easier to get to (than Kent).

> > I don't remember seeing any Amiga
> > games there, but I would quite like to have another look...
>
> I was there a few weeks ago, picked up a copy of starblade for the 3do for 2
> quid. I'm almost certain there were no games. I have some originals though, not
> sure if any of them are rare or anything but maybe I ought to try dumping them.

No (Amiga) games? Oh well... I will have to have a look. Thanks!

If it is a small list, just mail it to caps@caps-project.org and I will take a look. Thanks :)





SubjectRe: Much More Info ;) KIckstart help please new Reply to this message
Posted bySpeedballx
Posted on11/04/03 07:51 AM



> > > I guess you've been blacklisted because of your *evil* countdown, nevermind
> > that it actually counted down to something worthwhile ;)
> >
Dear Amiga people,

I am sorry to burst in on your thread like this but am wondering if you know a source where I can download the kickstart and workbench roms for UAE. I am broke,otherwise i would go for the pay download sites. I cannot wait to try out creatures and other Amiga gems.
> > Evil countdown? I loved the countdown! :) Is this some immense faux-par in the
> > emulation world?
>
>
> This was my interpretation of the general view when the countdown showed up on
> your page.
>
> I *loved* the countdown, because I knew it was something worth waiting for...
> not some silly web page re-design, or release of an unstable and nearly useless
> *commercial* emulator...
>
> Yes, there is some bitterness associated with countdowns, and I think you got
> caught up in the bad vibe.
>
>
> > But yes, the difficulty I find getting them to post would indicate being
> > blacklisted for reasons that escape me. Even when there was apparently no news
> > to post it wasn't being posted...
>
>
> I don't think it's personal. I think this site has some good news posters, but
> it's mostly sporadic posting. Understandable: they have lives; they don't get
> paid for this; they do it because they want to; and they generally end up
> posting what interests them. Perhaps they have no appreciation for the Amiga,
> or perhaps they just keep missing the news and by the time they get it, it's
> *really old* news.
>
> You do have a following regardless of the front page support.
>
>
> > Until then, people will have to use WINE on Linux unfortunately. :(
>
>
> Understood. TkChris is the least sporadic of the posters, but he usually sticks
> with open-source Linux-compatible news. Windows-only solutions seem to get his
> penguin feathers ruffled ;)
>
>
> > The requirements are:
> >
> > A 68020 CPU or above.
> >
> > Minimum of 2Mb of RAM if dumping directly to another computer (using
> PC2Amiga).
> > However 5Mb of RAM (though 8 or above is recommended) is needed if dumping to
> > HD.
> >
> > Kickstart: The actual tool that does the dumping only needs KS 1.3, however,
> the
> > scripts wrapping the tool need KS2.0
>
>
> Are there any special requirements for the drive? Controllable speed...
> density... who knows what else? Or can a stock Amiga drive do the job? I'm
> thinking not, but who knows what the A1010 & built-in A4000 floppy drives are
> capable of...
>
>
> > > and is the software you use to generate a raw capture or a "cooked" IPF
> freely
> > available for use) ?
> >
> > Raw capture, yes.
> >
> > Unfortunately, you cannot generate actual IPF's for several reasons
>
>
> Centralized control is a good thing. Keeps the quality high, but the backlog
> must be *huge*.
>
>
> H@P
>





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