Like Cat People and Dog People, there are Tab People (Tab = one Tab character) and Space People (Tab = 2-4 Space character)

I'm a Space person, and I've just noticed I'm surround by a team... actually make that an entire COMPANY (!) of crazy Tab people.


So I'd like to conducea brief survey! Are you a Space person or a Tab person?

I've used Spaces ever since I can remember, because on other people screens it always looks the same no matter what editor they are using, whereas with Tabs it goes all over the place... it always seems so obviously a bad idea to use Tabs to me! But... well, this is a shock!


You learn something old everyday...

Back in the DOS days, the IDE I was using provided a cool options that converted tabs to spaces once you saved the file.

Also, in the same years I wrote a small and unoptimized program that converted tabs to a specified number of spaces in text files. Here it is. And yes, it's an exercise to learn how to use fstream classes.

//
// TABEXP.CPP
//

#include 
#include 

// self-explanatory
const unsigned short DEFAULT_TABSIZE = 4;

int main (int NArg, char *const arg[]) {

  // help if invalid syntax is used
  if (NArg < 3) {
    cout << "\nTABEXP - Tab Expander"
         << "\nUsage:"
         << "\n"
         << "\n " << arg[0] << "  infile  outfile  [tabsize]"
         << "\n"
         << "\nTab Expander expands all TABs in infile to  spaces in outfile"
         << "\ninfile must be a text file, default tabsize is " << DEFAULT_TABSIZE
         << "\nWARNING: data loss MAY occur; if you lose data, I'm sorry :)"
         << "\n";
  } else {
    // correct syntax used

    // open input file
    ifstream inFile(arg[1]);

    // error
    if (!inFile.good()) {
      cout << "\nSorry cannot open input file " << arg[1] << " - Exiting...\n";
      return 1;
    }

    // open output file, cannot be overwritten (only at the moment...)
    ofstream outFile(arg[2], ios::out|ios::noreplace);

    // error
    if (!outFile.good()) {
      cout << "\nSorry cannot open output file " << arg[2] << " - Exiting...\n";
      return 1;
    }

    // obvious
    unsigned short tabSize = 0;

    // tabSize is non-zero if third parameter exists and is valid
    if (NArg > 3) tabSize = atoi (arg[3]);

    // decide wether to use default value
    if (tabSize == 0) tabSize = DEFAULT_TABSIZE;

    // print some info on the console
    cout << "\nUsing tabsize = " << tabSize;
    cout << "\nWorking... ";

    // ch is used for input and output; slow but it works well
    char ch;

    // a counter
    int i;

    // read char as long as it is not at EOF
    // if it's a tab, then write 'tabSize' spaces in output
    // if it's not, then copy in in output
    while (!inFile.get(ch).eof()) {
      if (ch == '\t') {
        for (i=0; i < tabSize; i++) {
          outFile.put(' ');
        }
      } else {
        outFile.put(ch);
      }
    }

    // politely close input file and *safely* close output file
    inFile. close();
    outFile.close();

    // if you don't see this, start worrying...
    cout << "operation completed.\n";

  }

  // return 'no-error' errorlevel
  return 0;

}

> Back in the DOS days, the IDE I was using provided a cool options that converted
> tabs to spaces once you saved the file.

My IDE (a.k.a. MS-DOS Editor ;)) does that.


----
Bart

>
> Like Cat People and Dog People, there are Tab People (Tab = one Tab character)
> and Space People (Tab = 2-4 Space character)
>
> I'm a Space person, and I've just noticed I'm surround by a team... actually
> make that an entire COMPANY (!) of crazy Tab people.
>
>
> So I'd like to conducea brief survey! Are you a Space person or a Tab person?
>
> I've used Spaces ever since I can remember, because on other people screens it
> always looks the same no matter what editor they are using, whereas with Tabs it
> goes all over the place... it always seems so obviously a bad idea to use Tabs
> to me! But... well, this is a shock! -nt-
>
>
> You learn something old everyday...
>


You learn something old everyday...

Tabs are preferrable for me, although I have no issue using spaces if that's what is used in a project.

Then again, I like dogs (it's not too obvious, is it?), but have always lived with at least one cat. Go figure.

- Barry Rodewald
http://galemu.emuunlim.com/

waddayalookinat?

NT

I work with 2-spaces at work.
In my own projects I'd rather use tabs, that's displayed as 4 spaces.

There's something very solid and reassuring, knowing that there is only one character to indicate an additional level of indentation. None of these people who use 3 spaces when they are meant to be using 2/4.

--
Paul

> waddayalookinat?
>

Was that indenting using space characters (char 32), or indenting using a tab character (char 9)?



You learn something old everyday...

> Was that indenting using space characters (char 32), or indenting using a tab
> character (char 9)?

I have a mild preference for tabs. It's the 4 characters that's the important bit.

I used to be a space person, but find tabs easier to edit; no need to press backspace or space 4 times.


same questions can be asked about this:

a {
bla
}

b
{
bla
}

i'd be a.


or this:

a: if(x+y==z) ...
b: if (x + y == z) ...

i'd be a too.

> I used to be a space person, but find tabs easier to edit; no need to press
> backspace or space 4 times.
That's incorrect, that happens with spaces as well. Tabs do not have an advantage in that case.


The advantages of tabs are:
1) Saves a small amount of disk space (oh please!)
2) Viewer can select tab width himself and see your code at tab=2, tab=3 etc

(However I don't view that second one as a big advantage, because if you've lined up something nicely it'll get broken.)


The advantage of spaces are that it looks the same in any editor (e.g. Nano, DOS edit, MSVC)

Beyond that it all religous




>
>
> same questions can be asked about this:
>
> a {
> bla
> }
>
> b
> {
> bla
> }
>
> i'd be a.

Java style - I hate it, but a lot of other people hate it as well. Why it's the Java standard is beyond me :P

>
>
> or this:
>
> a: if(x+y==z) ...
> b: if (x + y == z) ...
>
> i'd be a too.
>


You learn something old everyday...

tabs for indent, spaces to seperate variables from operators ( it's not like we have to squeeze our code into sms messages is it ), always put the braces on a new line ( even for single line if's ) & always put brackets instead of relying on operator precedence.

I find these really help code readability. Trying to cover as much of the white editor window as possible doesn't make readable code.

Oh and never, ever, ever use trinary operators as they are pure evil and offer zero advantages ( so much so that I don't even remember the syntax and I've been coding in C for over a decade ).

smf

> > I used to be a space person, but find tabs easier to edit; no need to press
> > backspace or space 4 times.
> That's incorrect, that happens with spaces as well. Tabs do not have an
> advantage in that case.
>
>
> The advantages of tabs are:
> 1) Saves a small amount of disk space (oh please!)
> 2) Viewer can select tab width himself and see your code at tab=2, tab=3 etc
>
> (However I don't view that second one as a big advantage, because if you've
> lined up something nicely it'll get broken.)
>
>
> The advantage of spaces are that it looks the same in any editor (e.g. Nano, DOS
> edit, MSVC)

I say any editor worth a damn ought to let you define how big you want your tabs to be, and I typically like to throw a comment at the top of my source noting my tab details (tab = 4, etc for anyone else that may have to have a look at it)
I think my workflow is a little more comfortable with tabs than with spaces... It seems as such anyways. :)

> tabs for indent, spaces to seperate variables from operators ( it's not like we
> have to squeeze our code into sms messages is it ), always put the braces on a
> new line ( even for single line if's ) & always put brackets instead of relying
> on operator precedence.
>
> I find these really help code readability. Trying to cover as much of the white
> editor window as possible doesn't make readable code.
>
> Oh and never, ever, ever use trinary operators as they are pure evil and offer
> zero advantages ( so much so that I don't even remember the syntax and I've been
> coding in C for over a decade ).

You mean the question mark? We have a guy in the office here who uses nested ? as a form of switch statment... of some amusement to the rest of the programmers!

I use them sparingly. Actually I haven't used them at all in the current project, but I have been known to write stuff like
sprintf(text, "The value is %s", value?"Non-Zero":"Zero");

In that case fairly readable I think, but nothing beats an nice clear if statement!



You learn something old everyday...

It does seem I am out of touch with how programmers write their code then :-(

I thought Tabs would have been shunted because of stuff like edit and Nano, but probably because everyone is using Vis C style compilers now and have long since abandoned other editors, it doesn't matter.

Time for me to think about embracing the formally evil tab :-(

While we are on the topic (on the off-topic topic), what about other stuff, e.g.

class CFoo
{
public:
  CFoo();

  int       m_MemberVariable;
  
  void      MyMethod(int nArgument,int nAnotherArgument);
 
};

or

class Foo
{
public:
  Foo();

  int memberVariable;
  
  void myMethod(int argument,int anotherArgument);
};

or even

class foo
{
public:
  foo();

  int member_variable;

  my_method ( int argument, int another_argument );
};

> Oh and never, ever, ever use trinary operators as they are pure evil and offer
> zero advantages ( so much so that I don't even remember the syntax and I've been
> coding in C for over a decade ).

If you use caution and a grain of salt, you can even put goto statements in your C/C++ program and live happily.

There's nothing wrong in something like what follows, and I find as readable as the if version:

return ( anInt==anotherInt ? 1 : 0 );

> > Oh and never, ever, ever use trinary operators as they are pure evil and offer
> > zero advantages ( so much so that I don't even remember the syntax and I've
> been
> > coding in C for over a decade ).
>
> If you use caution and a grain of salt, you can even put goto statements in your
> C/C++ program and live happily.
>
> There's nothing wrong in something like what follows, and I find as readable as
> the if version:
>
> return ( anInt==anotherInt ? 1 : 0 );
>

actually since C uses int for bools that's exactly the same as
return anInt==anotherInt;

So you don't even need a ? ;)


You learn something old everyday...

> It does seem I am out of touch with how programmers write their code then :-(
>
> I thought Tabs would have been shunted because of stuff like edit and Nano, but
> probably because everyone is using Vis C style compilers now and have long since
> abandoned other editors, it doesn't matter.
>
> Time for me to think about embracing the formally evil tab :-(

It's not THAT evil :) I reckon you'll get used to it fast enough.


> While we are on the topic (on the off-topic topic), what about other stuff, e.g.



> Which is most like you? Mine would be the middle one, although my style is quite
> confused at the moment.
> I'm using Java method names and variables, but beginning to tire of it, and
> might switch back to starting method names with capitals. Really don't know what
> to do about locals, I tend to just try and squeese in short ones like "thisnode"
> or "timenow" or something to avoid thinking about it!! What a cop-out :P
>
> One thing I am sure of, Hungarian sucks big donkey balls. Agreed?

I predominantly start with capitals, but sometimes inadvertently stray and also do Java method names and vars stylings as you are doing now. I'd also hope to see some more replies and get a fix on what is more popular myself...

I think Hungarian has fallen widely out of favor a long time ago :)


-DX

Sometimes tab, sometimes spaces... :-)
However some IDEs have an "auto indent" function, and I usually use those to check my code, so in the end they're all tabs.



[download a life]

> actually since C uses int for bools that's exactly the same as
> return anInt==anotherInt;
>
> So you don't even need a ? ;)

Man, I must have been sleeping :P

Make it something like:

return anInt==anotherInt ? anInt : someValue;

However you got the point I guess :)

> class Foo
> {
> public:
> Foo();
>
> int memberVariable;
>
> void myMethod(int argument,int anotherArgument);
> };
>

My personal favourite. However....

class Foo {
public:
Foo();
int memberVariable;
void myMethod(int argument,int anotherArgument);
};

surely? no need to waste all that lovely space :)

of course in my code there would be doxygen comments attached to all the functions and variables, so that takes more space.

I find even if I'm writing a fairly small piece of code to only use in one place it's helpful to write and keep uptodate doxygen comments, because when you describe what a function does, what inputs it takes and what it outputs then if the function have become a horrible mess then it's fairly obvious :)

MrJeff

I think it's less readable & I suspect you could easily miss a bug when glancing at the code that would be more obvious with the if.

The only way to remove all bugs is to make them jump out at you, because as a programmer you sure as hell aren't going to find them by testing.

smf

> I think Hungarian has fallen widely out of favor a long time ago :)

I tend to use hungarian for C, most of my current work is C# though and I'm tending to use lower case for private variables and CamelCase for public methods.

I wonder if Xbox2 will use .NET? :-)

smf

> > I think Hungarian has fallen widely out of favor a long time ago :)
>
> I tend to use hungarian for C, most of my current work is C# though and I'm
> tending to use lower case for private variables and CamelCase for public
> methods.
>
> I wonder if Xbox2 will use .NET? :-)

Hey smf, is MS's new "XNA" architecture, in any way related to .Net?

I mean, I'm not directly involved in the games industry any more, but when MS starts to evangelize about a "one true platform solution", that supposedly scales as low as cell phones, and as high as next-generation high-performance consoles, I still get the heebie-geebies. Do you feel likewise?

(Maybe because of my background, I sort of started in the shadows of the demo scene, in which it was considered uncool to re-use someone else's code, and much better to re-implement a specialized version, yourself, in assembly. Granted, I haven't done any asm in years, nor a heck of a lot of programming in general, but I much prefer C++ nowadays.)

So therefore, the technical side of me, in a voice inside, is telling me that XNA just *has* to be sub-optimal, because in a one-size-fits-all solution, something's got to give. Kind of like writing "high performance" emulators, in Visual Basic, or something. Or arcade games in Java. You get my drift.

We require spaces only at work, and CodeWright is configured to enforce it.

XNA is pretty much a framework over DirectX that somehow makes it easier (since none of it's shipped yet AFAIK it remains to be seen how it works). In other words, MS is reinventing SDL ;-)

Part of XNA would appear to be Managed DirectX: http://msdn.microsoft.com/theshow/episode037/default.asp ).

If XNA isn't .NET based then I would be suprised.

smf

> Part of XNA would appear to be Managed DirectX:
> http://msdn.microsoft.com/theshow/episode037/default.asp ).
>
> If XNA isn't .NET based then I would be suprised.

Yeah, clearly it's going to be at least related to .NET/Managed DirectX. Lots of people scoff at it, but I still maintain that .NET was one of MS's better ideas, since it lets them ditch a whole bunch of their crappiest technologies at once (the Win32 API, MFC, VB, COM/OLE, etc).

> We require spaces only at work, and CodeWright is configured to enforce it.
>

How many space characters per indent?


You learn something old everyday...

Well VB is still in there, so technically software houses might start highering VB programmers for XBox 2 games.

There have been many debates on C# vs VB.NET, both languages have most of the same pro's and con's. The major differences I can make out are:

1) VB.NET tends to require more typing as it's more wordy.
2) VB.NET programmers get paid less than C# programmers.

smf

> Well VB is still in there, so technically software houses might start highering
> VB programmers for XBox 2 games.

ROTFL. Maybe we'll see another game like MYST, on XBox2/XNA platforms, written in VBScript, and tied to a licensed 3D engine. (UnrealEngine2 runs on XBox and PS2, I'm sure that they will do an XBox2 port when the time comes and dev SDKs are available.)

> There have been many debates on C# vs VB.NET, both languages have most of the
> same pro's and con's. The major differences I can make out are:
>
> 1) VB.NET tends to require more typing as it's more wordy.
> 2) VB.NET programmers get paid less than C# programmers.
>
> smf

I just really hope this whole "managed code" trend doesn't push "real" C/C++ programmers into a tiny niche, kind of like ASM programmers these days. (If they're good and smart, they'll end up writing RSP microcode like Sardu, or something.)

I just had another crazy idea, kind of related to that MYST comment above, and thinking about scripting languages and how Crack.Com's "Abuse" side-scroller, actually ran the AI and event code in their own LISP interpreter. (That game engine was so far ahead of its time, it wasn't funny, IMHO.)
Anyways, imagine a giant interconnected "grid" of Xbox2 or PS3 machines, with a dynamic/persistant world-state, in which changes that occured at one node could cause the entire group-world-dynamic to change, kind of like a "butterfly effect" sort of thing. It wouldn't have to be limited to MMORPG games either, it could even be applied to FPSs. Although, I would love to see a combination of those genres, like being able to "portal" between servers, and kick the crap out of the inhabitants with your custom-designed player-avatars and weapons, and basically travel around inside a wired world, "kicking some ass". (Most current online FPS games, have plenty of different levels/worlds to visit, but the player has to manually connect and disconnect to different servers, thus interrupting the "illusion" of the game-world, for lack of a better term. If the worlds could be "continuous", it would be a lot better for the suspension of disbelief.)

Maybe this whole .Net/XNA/managed-code thing will bring the level of platform-portability to enable this sort of distributed-game-engine development. The only downside to it is.. well, MS is behind it. :|

> ROTFL. Maybe we'll see another game like MYST, on XBox2/XNA platforms, written
> in VBScript, and tied to a licensed 3D engine.

VBScript is no more, it would be VB.NET & thats no worse than writing console/phone games in Java. Although I do know of someone that wrote a game using python.

smf

> > ROTFL. Maybe we'll see another game like MYST, on XBox2/XNA platforms, written
> > in VBScript, and tied to a licensed 3D engine.
>
> VBScript is no more, it would be VB.NET & thats no worse than writing
> console/phone games in Java.

Yes! That's true isn't it, because VB and VC# both compile to the same IL (MSIL).

I would vote for writing a game in C# personally though, just because you are more likely to be able to port the C# into C++ and then port it to non Microsoft stuff


You learn something old everyday...

I've always used a tab size of 2, converted to spaces.

> I would vote for writing a game in C# personally though, just because you are
> more likely to be able to port the C# into C++ and then port it to non Microsoft
> stuff

C# runs on non-Microsoft stuff right now. Compile once, run everywhere. Sun promised, MS (and Novell) delivered ;-)

spaced.
space ranger.
space pirate.
spacetruckin'.
a member of the space race.
space monkey.

> C# runs on non-Microsoft stuff right now. Compile once, run everywhere. Sun
> promised, MS (and Novell) delivered ;-)

Yeah, but MS had to FUD Sun into the ground and then poach the Java people to do it :D

smf

I type tabs (because I'm a lazy bastard). My editor automagically replaces them with spaces since I hate tabs too for the mentioned reasons.

Makjes things easier to edit. I also space out like the following

blah()
{
kekekekekeke
}

with tabs at the {}s and 2 tabs at the kekekekekeke parts.

When twilight dims the skies above
Recalling thrills of our love
There's one thing I'm certain of
Return...
I will...
to old...
BRAZIL.

> Makjes things easier to edit.
In what way though?


> I also space out like the following
>
> blah()
> {
> kekekekekeke
> }
>
> with tabs at the {}s and 2 tabs at the kekekekekeke parts.
>
> When twilight dims the skies above
> Recalling thrills of our love
> There's one thing I'm certain of
> Return...
> I will...
> to old...
> BRAZIL.
>


You learn something old everyday...

> > I would vote for writing a game in C# personally though, just because you are
> > more likely to be able to port the C# into C++ and then port it to non
> Microsoft
> > stuff
>
> C# runs on non-Microsoft stuff right now. Compile once, run everywhere. Sun
> promised, MS (and Novell) delivered ;-)
>

Heh, well truth be told, Sun much more deliverd the promise for a long time :-)

> > ROTFL. Maybe we'll see another game like MYST, on XBox2/XNA platforms, written
> > in VBScript, and tied to a licensed 3D engine.
>
> VBScript is no more, it would be VB.NET & thats no worse than writing
> console/phone games in Java. Although I do know of someone that wrote a game
> using python.
>

The real drawback of using java for games is (ironically) the *lack* of portability atm. It's absolutely fine for writing games for Win32/Linux/Mac (There is a java written Quake3 clone running at 500fps on my not-quite up to date PC for example), but there's no JVM for a console (excluding the Dream Cast). Now that's the real bummer for professional game studio's since consoles are the bigger market.
A JVM or a .Net runtime on consoles (and I mean all major consoles, not just XBox) would be a great thing for game programmers/studios. No more (or almost no more) C++, that would be a real time saver.
I'll stop rambling now ;-)

> Well VB is still in there, so technically software houses might start highering
> VB programmers for XBox 2 games.
>

Well, if the .NET runtime delivers its promise, it would actually make sense you know. VB programmers are a lot cheaper and it's all about money.
But how many software houses would exclusively target XBox2?

> I used to be a space person, but find tabs easier to edit; no need to press
> backspace or space 4 times.
>
>
> same questions can be asked about this:
>
> a {
> bla
> }
>
> b
> {
> bla
> }
>
> i'd be a.

In C/C++ I'd be B, in java A but that's because everybody does it that way in java and I got used to it.

>
>
> or this:
>
> a: if(x+y==z) ...
> b: if (x + y == z) ...
>

I'd be B here. I like my code to be easily readable.
But anyway, if you like to write code in a format that's not easily readable to everybody else and your editor is not able to format your code, you should look for another one.
I usually write something in a way that's quick and easy to write (but maybe hard to read), press CTRL+F et voila, everything looks nice (or conforms to some standard) :-)
Then it doesn't make no difference anymore if you type tabs or spaces.

:D