I saw the following over at cps2shock,
____________________________________________________________
27/10/2002

There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real hardware.

It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future so good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's. The reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with using region switching in CPS2 games.

It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with these hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as they cannot guarantee an accurate game.

____________________________________________________________

So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the CPS2 encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run unxored program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games (ie progear)?

Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)

> So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the CPS2
> encryption?

Nope.

Roman Scherzer
ClrMamePro

> > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> CPS2
> > encryption?
>
> Nope.

I think the "hackers" just found what bytes to change in the XOR, so that in the decrypted rom image they will make the software think it's from another region... old region switch hack found in old emulators, that made games do weird stuff and freeze now and then.

With some effort, you could probably craft xors that make street fighter alpha work like pacman, without knowing a thing about CPS2 encryption.

> > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > CPS2
> > > encryption?
> >
> > Nope.
>
> I think the "hackers" just found what bytes to change in the XOR, so that in the
> decrypted rom image they will make the software think it's from another
> region... old region switch hack found in old emulators, that made games do
> weird stuff and freeze now and then.
>
> With some effort, you could probably craft xors that make street fighter alpha
> work like pacman, without knowing a thing about CPS2 encryption.
>
>

This line makes me think other wise.

"these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real hardware."

If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect the game. Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I think what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption key. And since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs. or regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you apply an XOR not made for it.

If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite small if there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be brute forced easily if the algorithm was known.

Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch when most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on something that pathetic? Really no one would care.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an xor to run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the other hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run unxored program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know would comment with a little more than just "nope".


>
> This line makes me think other wise.
>
> "these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the real
> encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real hardware."
>
> If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect the game.
> Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I think
> what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption key. And
> since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs. or
> regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you apply an
> XOR not made for it.
>
> If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite small if
> there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be brute
> forced easily if the algorithm was known.
>
> Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch when
> most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on something
> that pathetic? Really no one would care.
>

> I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> ____________________________________________________________
> 27/10/2002
>
> There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released
> in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain
> incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for
> many addresses when compared to real hardware.
>
> It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future so
> good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's. The
> reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with using
> region switching in CPS2 games.
>
> It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with these
> hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as
> they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the CPS2
> encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run unxored
> program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games (ie
> progear)?
>
> Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for
> any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
>

> Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an xor to
> run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the other
> hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run unxored
> program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know would
> comment with a little more than just "nope".

Calling it a hacked XOR could mean anything even just a change to the rom checksum. Which would probably be required.

Understanding the encryption wouldn't be required just knowing how the xor's are applied to make changes to code.

>
>
> >
> > This line makes me think other wise.
> >
> > "these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the real
> > encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real hardware."
> >
> > If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect the
> game.
> > Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I think
> > what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption key. And
> > since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs. or
> > regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you apply an
> > XOR not made for it.
> >
> > If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite small if
> > there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be brute
> > forced easily if the algorithm was known.
> >
> > Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch
> when
> > most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on
> something
> > that pathetic? Really no one would care.
> >
>

> > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > 27/10/2002
> >
> > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released
> > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain
> > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for
> > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> >
> > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> so
> > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> The
> > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> using
> > region switching in CPS2 games.
> >
> > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> these
> > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as
> > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> >
> > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> CPS2
> > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> unxored
> > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> (ie
> > progear)?
> >
> > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for
> > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> >
>

> Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an xor to
> run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the other
> hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run unxored
> program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know would
> comment with a little more than just "nope".

I'm not in the know, but as far as I can imagine this is what happens.

An emulator needs the decrypted rom to run. So it eats the encrypted rom and the xor file, and does this:

decryptedrom = encryptedrom XOR xorfile

But actually the xorfile is thus produced by Razoola:

xorfile = encryptedrom XOR decryptedrom

The encrypted rom is dumped off the chips. The decrypted rom is ripped by Razoola's trojan via the coin led or something.

Now, if you know how to change the decrypted rom in order to switch region and make your character's skin blue instead of yellow, all you have to do is

l337xorfile = encryptedrom XOR h4xx0reddecryptedrom

As you can see, the encrypted rom is still the same everybody uses, you just have to craft a different decrypted rom (which is hackable machine code) and produce a new xor file via the above procedure. Where is CPS2 encryption involved?

BTW, it looks like every game has a different method, so bruteforcing a game's "key" (if it's really a key and not an algo) wouldn't work for other games. As if they hadn't tried already.

My 2 cents.

That would still be some progress in my opinion :) Up untill now Raz has had us believe that each game or revision has an entirely different encryption key.

> > Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an xor
> to
> > run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the other
> > hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run unxored
> > program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know would
> > comment with a little more than just "nope".
>
> Calling it a hacked XOR could mean anything even just a change to the rom
> checksum. Which would probably be required.
>
> Understanding the encryption wouldn't be required just knowing how the xor's are
> applied to make changes to code.
>
> >
> >
> > >
> > > This line makes me think other wise.
> > >
> > > "these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the real
> > > encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real hardware."
> > >
> > > If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect the
> > game.
> > > Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I
> think
> > > what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption key.
> And
> > > since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs. or
> > > regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you apply
> an
> > > XOR not made for it.
> > >
> > > If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite small
> if
> > > there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be
> brute
> > > forced easily if the algorithm was known.
> > >
> > > Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch
> > when
> > > most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on
> > something
> > > that pathetic? Really no one would care.
> > >
> >
>

I know hacked xors are easy enough to make; there were plenty of them with region hacks when cps2 was first emulated. But you're missing the point, it appears that the hacked xors are being used to run revisions that haven't been decrypted yet (using encrypted program roms that have yet to be decrypted by Raz). As Malice pointed out, this may not mean they have any real understanding of the encryption itself....but it might mean that different revisions of the same game have the same or similar encryption key.

> I'm not in the know, but as far as I can imagine this is what happens.
>
> An emulator needs the decrypted rom to run. So it eats the encrypted rom and the
> xor file, and does this:
>
> decryptedrom = encryptedrom XOR xorfile
>
> But actually the xorfile is thus produced by Razoola:
>
> xorfile = encryptedrom XOR decryptedrom
>
> The encrypted rom is dumped off the chips. The decrypted rom is ripped by
> Razoola's trojan via the coin led or something.
>
> Now, if you know how to change the decrypted rom in order to switch region and
> make your character's skin blue instead of yellow, all you have to do is
>
> l337xorfile = encryptedrom XOR h4xx0reddecryptedrom
>
> As you can see, the encrypted rom is still the same everybody uses, you just
> have to craft a different decrypted rom (which is hackable machine code) and
> produce a new xor file via the above procedure. Where is CPS2 encryption
> involved?
>
> BTW, it looks like every game has a different method, so bruteforcing a game's
> "key" (if it's really a key and not an algo) wouldn't work for other games. As
> if they hadn't tried already.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
>

>...but it might mean that different revisions of the
> same game have the same or similar encryption key.

that is exactly what it means. I believe to remember quite well one of the first things we found out when cps2shock started releasing Excel tables of parts of the unencrypted Street Fighter Alpha roms (long before the time of XOR's).
And that was that that different revisions boards of the same game use the same encryption. It's described in Report 2 on aforementioned page.

This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)




> > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > 27/10/2002
> >
> > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released
> > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain
> > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for
> > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> >
> > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> so
> > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> The
> > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> using
> > region switching in CPS2 games.
> >
> > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> these
> > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as
> > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> >
> > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> CPS2
> > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> unxored
> > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> (ie
> > progear)?
> >
> > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for
> > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> >
>


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

Why did Raz waste so much time and money xoring different country versions and revisions of the same game if the encryption key is the same? If this is the case, Raz really is runing a scam :| I've always been on the fence when it came to this issue...but I geuss this would finally put that argument to rest.

> >...but it might mean that different revisions of the
> > same game have the same or similar encryption key.
>
> that is exactly what it means. I believe to remember quite well one of the first
> things we found out when cps2shock started releasing Excel tables of parts of
> the unencrypted Street Fighter Alpha roms (long before the time of XOR's).
> And that was that that different revisions boards of the same game use the same
> encryption. It's described in Report 2 on aforementioned page.
>

Figuring out the encryption key's totally different from xoring (which I've always understood to be sort of like an ips patch more than anything). The xor's specific to each revision and can only translate that specific encrypted dump into decrypted data of the same revision. Trying to apply the xor of one revision to a different revision wouldn't just decrypt the other revision. Any of the emu-wizes know if this case?


> >...but it might mean that different revisions of the
> > same game have the same or similar encryption key.
>
> that is exactly what it means. I believe to remember quite well one of the first
> things we found out when cps2shock started releasing Excel tables of parts of
> the unencrypted Street Fighter Alpha roms (long before the time of XOR's).
> And that was that that different revisions boards of the same game use the same
> encryption. It's described in Report 2 on aforementioned page.
>

If that's the case, shouldn't you be quitting the scene right about now?




> This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)


... Calvin Klein's no friend o' mine, don't want nobody's name on my be-hind...

> If that's the case, shouldn't you be quitting the scene right about now?
>

Hahah!

Kai

Hey, can't knock a dog that gets to play the wh0rd3d Progear romset. He's 2-L337.

Kai

> If this is the case, Raz really is runing a scam :|

In other news, the sky was reported as being bluish in color today. *lol*

I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel... hence the wh0rding of any CPS-2 romset that has less than 132 revisions of the same game already emulated.

Kai

>
>
>
> This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
>
>
>
>
> > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > 27/10/2002
> > >
> > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> released
> > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> contain
> > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> for
> > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > >
> > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> > so
> > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> > The
> > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > using
> > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > >
> > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > these
> > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator
> as
> > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > CPS2
> > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > unxored
> > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> > (ie
> > > progear)?
> > >
> > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> for
> > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > >
> >
>
>
> Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
>

:P Yeah I should know better....theres always the little sliver of hope that maybe theres some truth to what teh guy says though. I guess I just look at things a little more optimistically than most ppl

> > If this is the case, Raz really is runing a scam :|
>
> In other news, the sky was reported as being bluish in color today. *lol*
>
> I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel... hence the
> wh0rding of any CPS-2 romset that has less than 132 revisions of the same game
> already emulated.
>
> Kai
>

>
>
>
> This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
>
>
>
>
> > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > 27/10/2002
> > >
> > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> released
> > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> contain
> > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> for
> > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > >
> > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> > so
> > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> > The
> > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > using
> > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > >
> > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > these
> > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator
> as
> > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > CPS2
> > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > unxored
> > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> > (ie
> > > progear)?
> > >
> > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> for
> > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > >
> >
>
>
> Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
>


-Smitdogg

> > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > 27/10/2002
> >
> > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released
> > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain
> > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for
> > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> >
> > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> so
> > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> The
> > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> using
> > region switching in CPS2 games.
> >
> > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> these
> > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as
> > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> >
> > ____________________________________________________________
> >
> > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> CPS2
> > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> unxored
> > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> (ie
> > progear)?
> >
> > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for
> > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> >
>


-Smitdogg

> > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > 27/10/2002
> > >
> > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> released
> > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> contain
> > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> for
> > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > >
> > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> > so
> > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> > The
> > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > using
> > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > >
> > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > these
> > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator
> as
> > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > CPS2
> > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > unxored
> > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> > (ie
> > > progear)?
> > >
> > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> for
> > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > >
> >
>


-Smitdogg

> > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> CPS2
> > encryption?
>
> Nope.
>
> Roman Scherzer
> ClrMamePro
>


-Smitdogg

> > If this is the case, Raz really is runing a scam :|
>
> In other news, the sky was reported as being bluish in color today. *lol*
>
> I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel... hence the
> wh0rding of any CPS-2 romset that has less than 132 revisions of the same game
> already emulated.
>
> Kai
>


-Smitdogg

> >
> >
> >
> > This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> > original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > 27/10/2002
> > > >
> > > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> > released
> > > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While
> this
> > > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region
> switch
> > > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> > contain
> > > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> > for
> > > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > > >
> > > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the
> future
> > > so
> > > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good
> XOR's.
> > > The
> > > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > > using
> > > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > > >
> > > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > > these
> > > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any
> emulator
> > as
> > > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > > >
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > > CPS2
> > > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > > unxored
> > > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if
> anyone's
> > > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored
> games
> > > (ie
> > > > progear)?
> > > >
> > > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> > for
> > > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
> >
>
>
> -Smitdogg
>

each game has its own key
each country version has its own key

each *revision* uses the same key.

different xors are required even for different revisions for each because the xors are one big giant hack. this means that if raz gets rid of the board for a game/country then no more xors can be produced for that until he gets another and the game won't run. this is *not* how things should be with the correct decryption keys.

the Sega work in Mame has been done properly, if we find multiple games using the same encrypted cpu part (we just found some more smgp revisions) then they will work fine without any additional data being required.

As for doing things properly making it too easy to bootleg the new games, I'm still not convinced. If CPS2 encryption is half as good as the Sega encryption then you can't guess the keys (8k!) without being able to dump decrypted data from the boards, and if you can do that you can bootleg them anyway.

hacked xors can be created because the majority of the data is *probably* the same and because the xor method is just a giant hack.

as for scam, i'll let you draw your own conclusions, no comment.



> That would still be some progress in my opinion :) Up untill now Raz has had us
> believe that each game or revision has an entirely different encryption key.
>
> > > Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an xor
> > to
> > > run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the
> other
> > > hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run unxored
> > > program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know
> would
> > > comment with a little more than just "nope".
> >
> > Calling it a hacked XOR could mean anything even just a change to the rom
> > checksum. Which would probably be required.
> >
> > Understanding the encryption wouldn't be required just knowing how the xor's
> are
> > applied to make changes to code.
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > This line makes me think other wise.
> > > >
> > > > "these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the
> real
> > > > encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real
> hardware."
> > > >
> > > > If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect the
> > > game.
> > > > Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I
> > think
> > > > what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption key.
> > And
> > > > since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs. or
> > > > regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you
> apply
> > an
> > > > XOR not made for it.
> > > >
> > > > If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite small
> > if
> > > > there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be
> > brute
> > > > forced easily if the algorithm was known.
> > > >
> > > > Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch
> > > when
> > > > most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on
> > > something
> > > > that pathetic? Really no one would care.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
http://haze.mame.net/

As you may ( or may not ) know the xor tables are already just a cheap hack to run the games. We have the encrypted version of the game from the roms and the decrypted version from Razoola, the xor files are just the encrypted xor'd with the decrypted version ( for what reason the decrypted roms aren't just shipped I don't know, supposedly something to do with copyright but legally there is no difference ).

So you recreate the decrypted version ( exactly the way the emulator does at load time ) and then xor it with the encrypted roms for the game that hasn't had it's xor created by razolla and voila you have the xor for it. Which as the region is likely to be controlled by data and not code you shouldn't even have to region hack it.

There is REALLY no new knowledge required to do this.

Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system 16 could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting every single board back again.

smf

> > If that's the case, shouldn't you be quitting the scene right about now?
> >
>
> Hahah!
>
> Kai
>

Your little brother will get to play SSF2 and so he won't cry
CPS2LAME Davey was his name

> Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system 16
> could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or
> boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting every
> single board back again.
>
> smf
>

In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy with that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo. Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented in the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.

Raz





Raz

Why do you keep beating around the bush? Just shut up and release the proper decrypted dumps of all the games if you really have done your best to help out. Its so annoying having to read your posts with you pretending you have no idea what mamedevs are talking about!


> > Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system
> 16
> > could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> > haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or
> > boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> > finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting
> every
> > single board back again.
> >
> > smf
> >
>
> In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy with
> that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented in
> the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
>
> Raz
>
>
>
>
>
> Raz
>

If you were to recreate a decrypted version of the game using the xors and encrypted dump, would it be identical to the original decrypted dump Raz made originally to make the xor?


> So you recreate the decrypted version ( exactly the way the emulator does at
> load time ) and then xor it with the encrypted roms for the game that hasn't had
> it's xor created by razolla and voila you have the xor for it. Which as the
> region is likely to be controlled by data and not code you shouldn't even have
> to region hack it.

> > Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system
> 16
> > could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> > haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or
> > boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> > finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting
> every
> > single board back again.
> >
> > smf
> >
>
> In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy with
> that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented in
> the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
>

consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data, having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.

> Raz
>
>
>
>
>
> Raz
>


Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
http://haze.mame.net/

> > > Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on
> system
> > 16
> > > could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> > > haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money
> or
> > > boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> > > finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting
> > every
> > > single board back again.
> > >
> > > smf
> > >
> >
> > In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy
> with
> > that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> > Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented
> in
> > the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
> >
>
> consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table
> dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.

Would it be possible to do the same thing for CPS2 Raz? Dump a large table of each possible input to a certain memory location and list the outputs. Nicola might be on a roll and could figure out CPS2 as well....

I have to admit that originally I supported XORs since I thought that having an 'in' to the system would help finding the algorithm... but several years on and there is still no algorithm, I have to doubt whether xors were ever a good idea :(
Will the system truly be preserved in a non-hacky way till an algorithm is found?


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

>
>
>
> This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
>
>
>
>
> > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > 27/10/2002
> > >
> > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> released
> > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> contain
> > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> for
> > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > >
> > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future
> > so
> > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's.
> > The
> > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > using
> > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > >
> > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > these
> > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator
> as
> > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > >
> > > ____________________________________________________________
> > >
> > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > CPS2
> > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > unxored
> > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games
> > (ie
> > > progear)?
> > >
> > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> for
> > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > >
> >
>
>
> Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
>




http://www.pign.net

> each game has its own key
> each country version has its own key
>
> each *revision* uses the same key.
>
> different xors are required even for different revisions for each because the
> xors are one big giant hack. this means that if raz gets rid of the board for a
> game/country then no more xors can be produced for that until he gets another
> and the game won't run. this is *not* how things should be with the correct
> decryption keys.
>
> the Sega work in Mame has been done properly, if we find multiple games using
> the same encrypted cpu part (we just found some more smgp revisions) then they
> will work fine without any additional data being required.
>
> As for doing things properly making it too easy to bootleg the new games, I'm
> still not convinced. If CPS2 encryption is half as good as the Sega encryption
> then you can't guess the keys (8k!) without being able to dump decrypted data
> from the boards, and if you can do that you can bootleg them anyway.
>
> hacked xors can be created because the majority of the data is *probably* the
> same and because the xor method is just a giant hack.
>
> as for scam, i'll let you draw your own conclusions, no comment.
>
>
>
> > That would still be some progress in my opinion :) Up untill now Raz has had
> us
> > believe that each game or revision has an entirely different encryption key.
> >
> > > > Thats exactly what I was thinking. There would be no point in making an
> xor
> > > to
> > > > run previously xored program roms run in a different region. But on the
> > other
> > > > hand, I'd imagine some knowledge of the encryption is needed to run
> unxored
> > > > program roms with a hacked xor. It would be nice if someone in the know
> > would
> > > > comment with a little more than just "nope".
> > >
> > > Calling it a hacked XOR could mean anything even just a change to the rom
> > > checksum. Which would probably be required.
> > >
> > > Understanding the encryption wouldn't be required just knowing how the xor's
> > are
> > > applied to make changes to code.
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This line makes me think other wise.
> > > > >
> > > > > "these new XOR's contain incorrect information in relation to what the
> > real
> > > > > encryption would return for many addresses when compared to real
> > hardware."
> > > > >
> > > > > If they were just changing code to alter the region it wouldn't affect
> the
> > > > game.
> > > > > Other than the normal problems of using region codes with some games. I
> > > think
> > > > > what he's getting at is some clone games may use the same encryption
> key.
> > > And
> > > > > since the code would be similar too the XOR works. But different revs.
> or
> > > > > regions will still have code changes that would be incorrect when you
> > apply
> > > an
> > > > > XOR not made for it.
> > > > >
> > > > > If this is true it leads me to speculate that the key could be quite
> small
> > > if
> > > > > there's a lot of games that work like this. The remaining games could be
> > > brute
> > > > > forced easily if the algorithm was known.
> > > > >
> > > > > Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region
> switch
> > > > when
> > > > > most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on
> > > > something
> > > > > that pathetic? Really no one would care.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
> http://haze.mame.net/
>




http://www.pign.net

> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like
> the
> > > original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > > 27/10/2002
> > > > >
> > > > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> > > released
> > > > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While
> > this
> > > > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region
> > switch
> > > > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> > > contain
> > > > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would
> return
> > > for
> > > > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > > > >
> > > > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the
> > future
> > > > so
> > > > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good
> > XOR's.
> > > > The
> > > > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come
> with
> > > > using
> > > > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do
> with
> > > > these
> > > > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any
> > emulator
> > > as
> > > > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > > > >
> > > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > >
> > > > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding
> the
> > > > CPS2
> > > > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > > > unxored
> > > > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if
> > anyone's
> > > > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored
> > games
> > > > (ie
> > > > > progear)?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care
> less
> > > for
> > > > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
> > >
> >
> >
> > -Smitdogg
> >
>

> consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table
> dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
>

Of course.. The basic fact is that I diddent have gigabytes of data to share, All the data I had at the time was shared period, I did not hold any back.

Raz

> Would it be possible to do the same thing for CPS2 Raz? Dump a large table of
> each possible input to a certain memory location and list the outputs. Nicola
> might be on a roll and could figure out CPS2 as well....

I did provide a table of all enc with dec counterparts for 1 address and partial for another. Also complete fills of the rom space with certin dec values. It did not help though.

It took days on end to create these tables which I simply did not have time to do at the time. Then with the certin dev lameness on top I was totally un motovated to get any more.

Raz

> I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel...

By those people who are the first to cry fake or scam three minutes after anything novel breaks in emulation on the basis of sod all information whatsoever. Even if it did turn out to be a scam, they've only got themselves to blame because they're the ones who make it pretty much impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff in the first place. Personally I would be willing to give Razoola the benefit of the doubt purely on the basis that he's at the receiving end of the emu equivalent of LJDrama.

At the time the demand was for a way to make CPS2 games playable, and insofar as that happened CPS2Shock fulfilled its stated goal. Arguing after the fact that it was possibly not the best way to go about achieving that goal is a complete red herring, hindsight being 20/20 and all that. I didn't hear the masses complaining about suddenly being able to play the games at the time, despite the fact that even then it was obviously a "giant hack", as Haze put it. Aren't double standards a wonderful thing?

Targaff

>I didn't hear the masses complaining about suddenly being able to play the games at the time, despite the
> fact that even then it was obviously a "giant hack", as Haze put it. Aren't
> double standards a wonderful thing?

I don't have an opinion either way on this matter, but people were definately were crying out at the XOR releases rather than pure decryption from the beginning. Many of the same people as those who posted in this topic as a matter of fact.

If you didn't hear people complaining back then, than you weren't paying attention.

> >Razoola the benefit of the doubt purely on the basis that he's at the
> receiving end of the emu equivalent of LJDrama.

I thought it was more the emu equivalent of "Half Baked", given the size of the bong he was filling up daily on the emulation community's dime. ~_^

Kai

> http://www.pign.net
>

> Consider this why would someone bother hacking XOR's to do a region switch when
> most CPS2 emu's support region switching. And why would Raz comment on something
> that pathetic? Really no one would care.

Quite ironic, I think, considering that Raz himself released "hacked" XORs, ones that were intentionally incomplete. He also admitted as such, publically, a few years later.

Maybe he's scared, that someone found out something that he doesn't know yet? Anyways, if he was actually able to crack encryption, XORs would be obsolete anyhow.

> I know hacked xors are easy enough to make; there were plenty of them with
> region hacks when cps2 was first emulated. But you're missing the point, it
> appears that the hacked xors are being used to run revisions that haven't been
> decrypted yet (using encrypted program roms that have yet to be decrypted by
> Raz). As Malice pointed out, this may not mean they have any real understanding
> of the encryption itself....but it might mean that different revisions of the
> same game have the same or similar encryption key.

That was pretty-much already known, years ago. Big whoop. :|

> Why did Raz waste so much time and money xoring different country versions and
> revisions of the same game if the encryption key is the same? If this is the
> case, Raz really is runing a scam :|

Uhmmm... DUH!

> the Sega work in Mame has been done properly, if we find multiple games using
> the same encrypted cpu part (we just found some more smgp revisions) then they
> will work fine without any additional data being required.
Great!

> As for doing things properly making it too easy to bootleg the new games, I'm
> still not convinced. If CPS2 encryption is half as good as the Sega encryption
> then you can't guess the keys (8k!) without being able to dump decrypted data
> from the boards, and if you can do that you can bootleg them anyway.
>
> hacked xors can be created because the majority of the data is *probably* the
> same and because the xor method is just a giant hack.
>
> as for scam, i'll let you draw your own conclusions, no comment.
>
> Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
> http://haze.mame.net/

Feeling charitably diplomatic today, I see. :)

> > > In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy
> > with
> > > that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> > > Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also
> documented
> > in
> > > the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
> > >
> >
> > consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table
> > dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> > having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
>
> Would it be possible to do the same thing for CPS2 Raz? Dump a large table of
> each possible input to a certain memory location and list the outputs. Nicola
> might be on a roll and could figure out CPS2 as well....

Both myself and OG requested some (specific, particular) data-tables, Raz refused to provide, claiming that he wouldn't help crack the actual encryption until CPS2 was no longer sold. Now, if he really cared about preservation, he would have dumped those sorts of data-tables necessary (which he claimed to be able to do, with his hardware setup), and h0ard3d them until such time as CPS2 was no longer being sold, and therefore fair game to work on breaking. Somehow, I doubt that he had that much foresight and wisdom. Especially if it would cut his chances of "Send Paypal" a second time.

> I have to admit that originally I supported XORs since I thought that having an
> 'in' to the system would help finding the algorithm... but several years on and
> there is still no algorithm, I have to doubt whether xors were ever a good idea
> :(
> Will the system truly be preserved in a non-hacky way till an algorithm is
> found?

While Raz may be to thank, for getting them playable, he may also be to blame, for them not getting properly preserved. Such confounding duality.

Okay I'll play.... ;)

If you read what I said carefully, I never said if you 'rename roms' I quit the scene... that would be silly

Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table
> > dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> > having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
> >
>
> Of course.. The basic fact is that I diddent have gigabytes of data to share,
> All the data I had at the time was shared period, I did not hold any back.
>
> Raz
>

You LIE.

You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove portions that appeared to be encrypted data (not code), because you were afraid that someone would have been able to make use of those addresses to break the encryption.

You admitted that yourself, later on.

Go smoke some more herb, Raz, maybe you will believe... whatever you want to believe...

> > I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel...
>
> At the time the demand was for a way to make CPS2 games playable, and insofar as
> that happened CPS2Shock fulfilled its stated goal.

They were made playable only after CPS2SHOCK changed their publically-stated goal, and that happened AFTER people had donated enough money for Raz to afford an EPROM-emulator device, under the fraudulent belief based on CPS2SHOCK's *original* stated goals.

I do have a (small) inside viewpoint here, seeing as how I was officially part of CPS2SHOCK for what, a week or so? I shared everything that I personally had up until that point, which was enough to convince them to let me join, but then things all went bad after Raz had his sudden about-face, from cracking CPS2, to instead, making them playable, which of course required "send paypal" for every boardset and revision. Totally unnecessary if the algo had been properly understood and cracked. But that wouldn't have PAID like the alternative did, of course.

> Arguing after the fact that
> it was possibly not the best way to go about achieving that goal is a complete
> red herring, hindsight being 20/20 and all that.

Hindsight isn't "send paypal", sorry. Not the same.

> I didn't hear the masses
> complaining about suddenly being able to play the games at the time, despite the
> fact that even then it was obviously a "giant hack", as Haze put it. Aren't
> double standards a wonderful thing?
>
> Targaff

I've never had a double-standard, my personal interested has *always* been about properly understand the algorithm and "breaking" the encryption. Purely from a technical perspective.

> > > consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early table
> > > dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> > > having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
> > >
> >
> > Of course.. The basic fact is that I diddent have gigabytes of data to share,
> > All the data I had at the time was shared period, I did not hold any back.
> >
> > Raz
> >
>
> You LIE.
>
> You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
> portions that appeared to be encrypted data (not code), because you were afraid
> that someone would have been able to make use of those addresses to break the
> encryption.
>
> You admitted that yourself, later on.
>
> Go smoke some more herb, Raz, maybe you will believe... whatever you want to
> believe...
>

This is why I have no motivation to do any more with comments like that. The portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted and thus no xor data is needed. Indeed I removed it on purpose I have never denied that, in fact I made it very clear what I did on the very first xor release. But you know this already and are distorting facts..., again.

As CPS2 has a 2004 game it will be another 3 years before I even consider making public any data I may choose to get to help break the algo. If you have a problem with that then Ill say what I've been saying for 3 years already... Go and get the data yourself!

Raz

> Both myself and OG requested some (specific, particular) data-tables, Raz
> refused to provide, claiming that he wouldn't help crack the actual encryption
> until CPS2 was no longer sold. Now, if he really cared about preservation, he
> would have dumped those sorts of data-tables necessary (which he claimed to be
> able to do, with his hardware setup), and h0ard3d them until such time as CPS2
> was no longer being sold, and therefore fair game to work on breaking. Somehow,
> I doubt that he had that much foresight and wisdom. Especially if it would cut
> his chances of "Send Paypal" a second time.

Well I remember a request from OG but then about 2 weeks after that a new CPS2 game was released (hsf2). So I stopped as that put another 3 years on the clock.

> While Raz may be to thank, for getting them playable, he may also be to blame,
> for them not getting properly preserved. Such confounding duality.

Sorry but I have made these games totally preseravable. I have made public a method to bring suicide games back to life without the need for a battery plus they will never die again from suicide. Emulation is not the be all and end all of preservation, you do not have the physical aspect of the game and like everyone knows emulation cannot be 100% accurate to the original. My suicide fix info preserve the game totally from suicide in its true physical medium. This alone is far more important for a Capcom Game collector rather than seeing the protection algo emulated in some form in emulation (esp as Capcom will no longer repair suicide boards).

Finally I would say that you are to blame for not getting the correct algo running for MAME, not me because I have made it perfectly clear that I will not give out info (that I dont even have) while there are newer games on the system. You have simply spent some 3 years slagging me off instead of actually getting up and doing it yourself, why if its so important to you? In the process you have made me less willing to actually get up and get more data when I feel the time is right to do so. No doubt you will go on for another 3 years with the same attitude and then maybe one day you will realise that the fate of CPS2 algo emulation does not rest on my head but yours for sitting back and expecting others to do it for you. Before you know it it will be to late to start.

Just think if 3 years ago you actually started to get the info yourself... Maybe you would have done it already... but look here now 3 years later... NOT... this in itsself tells me alot.

Fact

It took me just over 1 year physical time to do it and about 10 months of that was doing nothing waiting for hardware. You also know the method. In effect it should take somone with the neccessary hardware less than 2 weeks to get data and thats very well over estimating.

Raz

> > > > consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early
> table
> > > > dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of data,
> > > > having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Of course.. The basic fact is that I diddent have gigabytes of data to
> share,
> > > All the data I had at the time was shared period, I did not hold any back.
> > >
> > > Raz
> > >
> >
> > You LIE.
> >
> > You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
> > portions that appeared to be encrypted data (not code), because you were
> afraid
> > that someone would have been able to make use of those addresses to break the
> > encryption.
> >
> > You admitted that yourself, later on.
> >
> > Go smoke some more herb, Raz, maybe you will believe... whatever you want to
> > believe...
> >
>
> This is why I have no motivation to do any more with comments like that. The
> portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted and thus no
> xor data is needed. Indeed I removed it on purpose I have never denied that, in
> fact I made it very clear what I did on the very first xor release. But you know
> this already and are distorting facts..., again.
>
> As CPS2 has a 2004 game it will be another 3 years before I even consider making
> public any data I may choose to get to help break the algo. If you have a
> problem with that then Ill say what I've been saying for 3 years already... Go
> and get the data yourself!
>

and this is the reason many devs are fed up with you... throwing away data is *never* a good idea if there is no way of reproducing it otherwise.

yes, you can argue it wasn't decrypting code, but it would have provided values that might have been useful in building full tables at a later date (although i still suspect we'll need all the boards again to get complete keys) the only benefit of throwing away that data is making the xors smaller, the disadvantages by far outweigh that.

you are the only one distorting facts, throwing away/changing data, and generally making it harder for other people. I'm not a big fan of videoman myself but in this case he is right.


> Raz
>


Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
http://haze.mame.net/

> > > > > consider that charles shared many gigabytes of data, most of the early
> > table
> > > > > dumps he provided were 1gb+ in size, you supplied a couple of meg of
> data,
> > > > > having more data, from more than one game, obviously helps.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > Of course.. The basic fact is that I diddent have gigabytes of data to
> > share,
> > > > All the data I had at the time was shared period, I did not hold any back.
> > > >
> > > > Raz
> > > >
> > >
> > > You LIE.
> > >
> > > You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
> > > portions that appeared to be encrypted data (not code), because you were
> > afraid
> > > that someone would have been able to make use of those addresses to break
> the
> > > encryption.
> > >
> > > You admitted that yourself, later on.
> > >
> > > Go smoke some more herb, Raz, maybe you will believe... whatever you want to
> > > believe...
> > >
> >
> > This is why I have no motivation to do any more with comments like that. The
> > portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted and thus
> no
> > xor data is needed. Indeed I removed it on purpose I have never denied that,
> in
> > fact I made it very clear what I did on the very first xor release. But you
> know
> > this already and are distorting facts..., again.
> >
> > As CPS2 has a 2004 game it will be another 3 years before I even consider
> making
> > public any data I may choose to get to help break the algo. If you have a
> > problem with that then Ill say what I've been saying for 3 years already... Go
> > and get the data yourself!
> >
>
> and this is the reason many devs are fed up with you... throwing away data is
> *never* a good idea if there is no way of reproducing it otherwise.
>
> yes, you can argue it wasn't decrypting code, but it would have provided values
> that might have been useful in building full tables at a later date (although i
> still suspect we'll need all the boards again to get complete keys) the only
> benefit of throwing away that data is making the xors smaller, the disadvantages
> by far outweigh that.
>
> you are the only one distorting facts, throwing away/changing data, and
> generally making it harder for other people. I'm not a big fan of videoman
> myself but in this case he is right.
>
>
> > Raz
> >
>
>
> Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
> http://haze.mame.net/
>

hahahaha,, I am distorting facts??? I made it clear I was changing the XOR back in january 2001. And as for throwing away???? I think not, they are safe and will be released in another 3 years (providing no other game is released on CPS2 before hand), I expect you guys will still be moaning then. Its got to the point now that I will probably never get any more data now simply because I do not wish to share it with people who do not respect my wishes and just go aroung spreading crap instead. You should start looking for someone else to get this data like I told you to do 3 years ago if you are not patient enough for me to do it in my own time.

Raz

> I do have a (small) inside viewpoint here, seeing as how I was officially part
> of CPS2SHOCK for what, a week or so? I shared everything that I personally had
> up until that point, which was enough to convince them to let me join, but then
> things all went bad after Raz had his sudden about-face, from cracking CPS2, to
> instead, making them playable, which of course required "send paypal" for every
> boardset and revision. Totally unnecessary if the algo had been properly
> understood and cracked. But that wouldn't have PAID like the alternative did, of
> course.

lol... You spent weeks asking about becomeing a member and then when you were you disapeered and did nothing and only surfaced again once the protection was broke. You did not provide anything that wasent already known either, in fact I dont think you provided anything apart from show you had some basic knowledge.

In fact there was noone on the original CPS2 shock team that did or provide anything which helped my attack apart from CrashTest who helped with PC side software. If you remember right they all wanted a hardware attack approach while I was the only one who wanted a software based attack.

Raz

>
> hahahaha,, I am distorting facts??? I made it clear I was changing the XOR back
> in january 2001. And as for throwing away???? I think not, they are safe and
> will be released in another 3 years (providing no other game is released on CPS2
> before hand), I expect you guys will still be moaning then. Its got to the point
> now that I will probably never get any more data now simply because I do not
> wish to share it with people who do not respect my wishes and just go aroung
> spreading crap instead. You should start looking for someone else to get this
> data like I told you to do 3 years ago if you are not patient enough for me to
> do it in my own time.
>

You seem to indicate you were willing to help devs, yet you removed data from many many xors and withheld data you now claim to have safe somewhere. "All the data I had at the time was shared period" then "And as for throwing away???? I think not, they are safe"

We will be getting somebody else to do it, and we'd be perfectly happy if you closed down cps2shock and never showed your face in emulation again.

There was a *huge* sigh of relief when it was charles who figured out system16, believe me.

Tell Me Why You're Here, I Came To Disappear
http://haze.mame.net/

> > You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
> > portions that appeared to be encrypted data (not code), because you were
> afraid
> > that someone would have been able to make use of those addresses to break the
> > encryption.
> >
> > You admitted that yourself, later on.
>
> This is why I have no motivation to do any more with comments like that. The
> portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted and thus no
> xor data is needed. Indeed I removed it on purpose I have never denied that, in
> fact I made it very clear what I did on the very first xor release. But you know
> this already and are distorting facts..., again.

How am I distorting facts? I just brought it up again - and you just confirmed it!

Explain how that is a "distortion" again?

> As CPS2 has a 2004 game it will be another 3 years before I even consider making
> public any data I may choose to get to help break the algo. If you have a
> problem with that then Ill say what I've been saying for 3 years already... Go
> and get the data yourself!
>
> Raz

Ok. I will. Anyone want to loan me a CPS2 boardset and an EPROM-emulator? :)

> I'm not a big fan of videoman
> myself but in this case he is right.
LOL. Whoa. Mind if I save that and frame it, Haze? :P

> Finally I would say that you are to blame for not getting the correct algo
> running for MAME, not me because I have made it perfectly clear that I will not
> give out info (that I dont even have) while there are newer games on the system.
> You have simply spent some 3 years slagging me off instead of actually getting
> up and doing it yourself, why if its so important to you? In the process you
> have made me less willing to actually get up and get more data when I feel the
> time is right to do so. No doubt you will go on for another 3 years with the
> same attitude and then maybe one day you will realise that the fate of CPS2 algo
> emulation does not rest on my head but yours for sitting back and expecting
> others to do it for you. Before you know it it will be to late to start.
>
> Just think if 3 years ago you actually started to get the info yourself... Maybe
> you would have done it already... but look here now 3 years later... NOT... this
> in itsself tells me alot.
>
> Fact

Raz, I'm sorry but that argument doesn't hold water.

If you emulate something but do a half-assed job on it, you take away most of the motivation for anyone to do it properly. After all, the games are already playable. Your decision to go only part-way with the emulation of CPS2 *has* affected the ultimate quality with which it is emulated.

If you had XORed maybe one or two games and left your work for someone else to continue, maybe you'd have a point. But the whole lot have been XORed now... where's the incentive to emulate it properly?


They are not to blame at all.


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> lol... You spent weeks asking about becomeing a member and then when you were
> you disapeered and did nothing and only surfaced again once the protection was
> broke. You did not provide anything that wasent already known either, in fact I
> dont think you provided anything apart from show you had some basic knowledge.

Yes, I had independently acquired about as much understanding as the rest about CPS2, as much as could have been figured out from looking at the ROMs, and knowing basic 68K, without having any actual hardware to play with.

And no, I didn't spend "weeks asking", I asked you on IRC and presented what I knew, and that I shared an interest in cracking CPS2 and was shortly after accepted, but then removed a week or so later, roughly around the time of your public about-face. I don't remember if I was removed or I asked to be removed, I don't really care either way.

My only interest was in the technical side, understanding and cracking the encryption. Not finding a workaround that simply allowed one to play the games. So there was no problem with me with parting from CPS2SHOCK, since it became clear that their direction was not aligned in the same direction as my personal interest in the matter.

> In fact there was noone on the original CPS2 shock team that did or provide
> anything which helped my attack apart from CrashTest who helped with PC side
> software. If you remember right they all wanted a hardware attack approach while
> I was the only one who wanted a software based attack.

I mean, there really were only 3 or 4 technical people anyways, expecting a "major breakthrough" from any of them within a week's time is a bit extreme, don't you think?

I'll admit, I think your concept of trojaning the hardware was a stroke of genius, of sorts, but the lack of any sort of moral responsibility towards actual preservation of these CPS2 games that you profess to love so much, and your conduct in that manner, is what most people dislike about you Raz.

I just wanted to find out more information about the system, period, and help in any way that I could. I was working strictly from the ROMs angle. You're wrong about you being the only one interested in a software-based approach - I thought that it was possibly crackable purely from brute-forcing the ROMs themselves. As a matter of fact, I was SO sure about that, I started organizing a project to do just that, before I was ever associated with CPS2SHOCK. cps2@hotmail.com, that used to be me. (Have since long lost the password though.)

Yes, FYI everybody, I was "The Director", in case anyone did't remember that chunk of emu-history. Sadly, while optimizing the assembly-code that I was going to use as the core of the code-cracker, I realized that the algo that I had imagined would help to brute-force it, factored down essentially to "1=1". Oops. So, that didn't succeed, but I did give it quite an honest bit of effort trying to organize it all. Chemical was in on it too, more like I dragged that person in on it...

I apologize if you think or thought that I wanted to take credit somehow, the truth is that I don't, I just want to know if my theories about the encryption are right or not.

Dumping those data-tables, would have allowed me to prove that one way or another. Who knows, maybe "CPS2SHOCK" could have broken the real algorithm, so long ago, and these games could have been preserved by now already. But when it stopped being interesting in those goals, and instead only "send paypal", well, that was it.

Granted, what Charles has discovered about the Sega System16 encryption stuff does seem to cast some doubt on my prior theories. I had felt that what Sega is actually doing, was too complex, and that no-one would ever try that. I guess it is doable though, if you can actually slightly modify the processor code. (Speaking of CBC-mode encryption in the presence of async interrupts here.)

So, in the end, I guess neither one of us, has come any closer to understanding the true nature of the encryption, unless there are things that you're not telling us thus far.

> > While Raz may be to thank, for getting them playable, he may also be to blame,
> > for them not getting properly preserved. Such confounding duality.
>
> Sorry but I have made these games totally preseravable. I have made public a
> method to bring suicide games back to life without the need for a battery plus
> they will never die again from suicide.

Interesting, I took a look at CPS2SHOCK again for the first time in a while, and I have to hand it to you Raz, that is some nice work. Granted, though, that's not preserving the original, only a mutated hacked bootleg version of the games. Emulation may not be 100% perfect either, but it's closer to the original than your solution, technically.

I'm curious though, there were some rumors that there was a second unencrypted 68K on the boardset, something about CPS2 being based on CPS1, and still including the other CPU onboard, is that true? Or is the "encrypted" CPU on CPS2 totally stock, with the encryption/decryption happening outside of the CPU? (N.B. I've never seen a physical CPS2 boardset personally.)

> Finally I would say that you are to blame for not getting the correct algo
> running for MAME, not me because I have made it perfectly clear that I will not
> give out info (that I dont even have) while there are newer games on the system.
> You have simply spent some 3 years slagging me off instead of actually getting
> up and doing it yourself, why if its so important to you? In the process you
> have made me less willing to actually get up and get more data when I feel the
> time is right to do so. No doubt you will go on for another 3 years with the
> same attitude and then maybe one day you will realise that the fate of CPS2 algo
> emulation does not rest on my head but yours for sitting back and expecting
> others to do it for you. Before you know it it will be to late to start.

Uhm, I think that's kind of the point - that you initially offered cooperation, based on this hardware device + software trojan setup that you had, and then you spurned working with other people, telling them to do it themselves. Yet, you continue to vaguely insinuate that you do have some unquantified chunk of dumped CPS2 squirrelled away (yet at the same time you profess in the same breath to having shared all of the data that you have up to this point).

It's very misleading, and indeed, in some cases, it might already be too late, to re-acquire the full set of boards again, to dump enough data to properly crack the algo.

What you are basically saying here is - "Yes, I figured out a way to dump some data tables, but I'm going to tease MAMEdev with this ability, and not actually work with them - so why didn't they automatically decide to waste time duplicating that same effort, knowing that I wouldn't share? That's their fault - not mine."

It's called cooperation, to avoid duplication of effort, and is what allowed System16 games to be decrypted (properly) and emulated so quickly.

> It took me just over 1 year physical time to do it and about 10 months of that
> was doing nothing waiting for hardware. You also know the method. In effect it
> should take somone with the neccessary hardware less than 2 weeks to get data
> and thats very well over estimating.

Yes, I know. You said yourself the biggest problem, once you know the method, was waiting on the hardware. Well, I don't own any hardware.

> hahahaha,, I am distorting facts??? I made it clear I was changing the XOR back
> in january 2001. And as for throwing away???? I think not, they are safe and
> will be released in another 3 years (providing no other game is released on CPS2
> before hand), I expect you guys will still be moaning then. Its got to the point
> now that I will probably never get any more data now simply because I do not
> wish to share it with people who do not respect my wishes and just go aroung
> spreading crap instead. You should start looking for someone else to get this
> data like I told you to do 3 years ago if you are not patient enough for me to
> do it in my own time.
>
> Raz
If you want to do it and release it, then do so, but don't choose to do so or not do so based on other's actions. That's the most pitiful, infantile kind of behaviour imaginable, and it's really a laugh that you have to depend on the actions of others to do something that is purely up to you. You don't have any obligations but those you've already made for yourself by agreeing to do things, and you shouldn't expect other's to take on obligations in order for you to release them.

lo que sucede sucede

> If you want to do it and release it, then do so, but don't choose to do so or
> not do so based on other's actions. That's the most pitiful, infantile kind of
> behaviour imaginable, and it's really a laugh that you have to depend on the
> actions of others to do something that is purely up to you. You don't have any
> obligations but those you've already made for yourself by agreeing to do things,
> and you shouldn't expect other's to take on obligations in order for you to
> release them.
>
> lo que sucede sucede
>

I have made my feeling on this matter totally clear since 2001. I will not give any info while there are still new games on the system. Indeed I do not have any obligations, trying to get certin devs to understand that is a totally different matter.

Raz

> You seem to indicate you were willing to help devs, yet you removed data from
> many many xors and withheld data you now claim to have safe somewhere. "All the
> data I had at the time was shared period" then "And as for throwing away???? I
> think not, they are safe"

Again you bring up something you already know the answer to, that sums you up really and why I just dont want to help you.

I made it perfectly clear that I would help devs only after the system was no longer supported and there was a three year gap from the last release. Its you devs that couldent wait and started your moaning and abuse because of it.

> We will be getting somebody else to do it, and we'd be perfectly happy if you
> closed down cps2shock and never showed your face in emulation again.

Well CPS2shock isnt going to close just cause of what you think, MAME certinally isnt the be all and and all of emulation and there are certinally many people who have the same view of you and emulation so I dont care what you think there... But... Thank god... Finally after three plus years you seem to have finally got the message and will finally look to someone else.

Its just a pity that I told you to do this so so long ago and only now do you finally get the message, what a waste of time for you...

Its all just so funny.

Raz

> This is why I have no motivation to do any more with comments like that.
>

Waaa...baby want a rattle? I've been watching this drama unfold for ages. It's nice to see people finally standing up to your infantile behavior. I never agree much either with MAME or some of it's dev's, but haze is right... you need to vanish you schemer.

> > Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system
> 16
> > could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> > haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or
> > boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> > finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting
> every
> > single board back again.
> >
> > smf
> >
>
> In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy with
> that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented in
> the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
>
> Raz
>
>
>
>
>
> Raz
>

> > You seem to indicate you were willing to help devs, yet you removed data from
> > many many xors and withheld data you now claim to have safe somewhere. "All
> the
> > data I had at the time was shared period" then "And as for throwing away???? I
> > think not, they are safe"
>
> Again you bring up something you already know the answer to, that sums you up
> really and why I just dont want to help you.
>
> I made it perfectly clear that I would help devs only after the system was no
> longer supported and there was a three year gap from the last release. Its you
> devs that couldent wait and started your moaning and abuse because of it.
>
> > We will be getting somebody else to do it, and we'd be perfectly happy if you
> > closed down cps2shock and never showed your face in emulation again.
>
> Well CPS2shock isnt going to close just cause of what you think, MAME certinally
> isnt the be all and and all of emulation and there are certinally many people
> who have the same view of you and emulation so I dont care what you think
> there... But... Thank god... Finally after three plus years you seem to have
> finally got the message and will finally look to someone else.
>
> Its just a pity that I told you to do this so so long ago and only now do you
> finally get the message, what a waste of time for you...
>
> Its all just so funny.
>
> Raz
>

> How am I distorting facts? I just brought it up again - and you just confirmed
> it!
>
> Explain how that is a "distortion" again?

I think he's referring to...

"You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
portions that appeared to be encrypted data." - You

"The portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted" - Him

Twisty Clarification Services Inc.™

> I have made my feeling on this matter totally clear since 2001. I will not give
> any info while there are still new games on the system. Indeed I do not have any
> obligations, trying to get certin devs to understand that is a totally different
> matter.
>
> Raz
>

You DO have an obligation to all those that sent you money, Raz. But I guess that's irrelevant to someone who clearly lacks any sense of right and wrong.



... Calvin Klein's no friend o' mine, don't want nobody's name on my be-hind...

> > You seem to indicate you were willing to help devs, yet you removed data from
> > many many xors and withheld data you now claim to have safe somewhere. "All
> the
> > data I had at the time was shared period" then "And as for throwing away???? I
> > think not, they are safe"
>
> Again you bring up something you already know the answer to, that sums you up
> really and why I just dont want to help you.
>
> I made it perfectly clear that I would help devs only after the system was no
> longer supported and there was a three year gap from the last release. Its you
> devs that couldent wait and started your moaning and abuse because of it.
>
> > We will be getting somebody else to do it, and we'd be perfectly happy if you
> > closed down cps2shock and never showed your face in emulation again.
>
> Well CPS2shock isnt going to close just cause of what you think, MAME certinally
> isnt the be all and and all of emulation


MAME is the be all and end all of emulation

If that isn't obvious after 8 years, 2966 games, and god knows how many developers, I don't know when it will be.


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > Would it be possible to do the same thing for CPS2 Raz? Dump a large table of
> > each possible input to a certain memory location and list the outputs. Nicola
> > might be on a roll and could figure out CPS2 as well....
>
> I did provide a table of all enc with dec counterparts for 1 address and partial
> for another. Also complete fills of the rom space with certin dec values. It did
> not help though.
>
> It took days on end to create these tables which I simply did not have time to
> do at the time. Then with the certin dev lameness on top I was totally un
> motovated to get any more.
>
> Raz
>

Ok, there was a lot of lameness at the time.
E.g. for me it was very very very tempting to take FB and bury the source in a hole on my harddisk forever. I didn't. It got redeveloped into FBA. And that got developed into FBAX. That got transformed into FBA-XXX, which I absolutely fucking love and someone else did all the hard work ;) It sits on my XBox alongside MAMEoX and it's brilliant.

Then again, maybe NebulaX is better and it wouldn't have made any difference either way... haven't checked - but I guess I just like playing FBA-XXX ;)

Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > How am I distorting facts? I just brought it up again - and you just confirmed
> > it!
> >
> > Explain how that is a "distortion" again?
>
> I think he's referring to...
>
> "You intentionally edited the XORs that were originally released, to remove
> portions that appeared to be encrypted data." - You
>
> "The portions removed from the XORs are infact data that is not encrypted" - Him
>
> Twisty Clarification Services Inc.™
>

No contradiction, Code/Data is complicated in CPS2
Looking at the rom normally you see the scrambled code and plaintext data.
Looking at the rom through 'fetch' you see the plaintext code and scrambled data.

We're not talking about removing data which is needed to run the game.
What Haze is saying is that certain areas of data (e.g a string of zeros maybe) when seen through the 'fetch' lines offer an insight into how the decryption actually works, Raz removed this data.


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > > I thought the Ca$H0000La scam had long been accepted as gospel...
> >
> > At the time the demand was for a way to make CPS2 games playable, and insofar
> as
> > that happened CPS2Shock fulfilled its stated goal.
>
> They were made playable only after CPS2SHOCK changed their publically-stated
> goal, and that happened AFTER people had donated enough money for Raz to afford
> an EPROM-emulator device, under the fraudulent belief based on CPS2SHOCK's
> *original* stated goals.
>
> I do have a (small) inside viewpoint here, seeing as how I was officially part
> of CPS2SHOCK for what, a week or so? I shared everything that I personally had
> up until that point, which was enough to convince them to let me join, but then
> things all went bad after Raz had his sudden about-face, from cracking CPS2, to
> instead, making them playable, which of course required "send paypal" for every
> boardset and revision. Totally unnecessary if the algo had been properly
> understood and cracked. But that wouldn't have PAID like the alternative did, of
> course.

This does all sound pretty bad, and I feel pretty damn naive throughout this :-P Ah well, I genuinely did used to think it would get decrypted properly one day. Naive naive naive.

One thing I don't get is, does Raz now have a tonne of CPS2 boards still? Was that comedy picture of someone wading in a sea of arcade boards real? Or are they e-bayed for cash.

How much roughly does Raz have now? $100s, $1000s, $10,000s? Or does he just have a load of boards?
To me personally that seems a bit pointless, but then again I don't have a big attic to keep anything in... I know much bigger arcade collectors at work, but it's never really appealled to me ;)
Maybe one day I'll get a JAMMA cabinet or something!


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

Muah hahaha, things are getting fun again!!
Oooo..the drama is great


TheDarkAbyss

> > Whats annoying is that the same techniques that are getting results on system
> 16
> > could do the same for cps2, while charles mcdonald has shared everything we
> > haven't had the same cooperation from razoola. Everyone that donated money or
> > boards has only benefited with getting the games playable, the real work of
> > finding out how the hardware works will require the same effort of getting
> every
> > single board back again.
> >
> > smf
> >
>
> In fact I have shared all the data I had. At that time people seemed happy with
> that until they realised it got them no closer to understanding the algo.
> Everything I know about the encryption has been shared and is also documented in
> the MAME source, I cant share information that is unknown to me.
>
> Raz
>
>
>
>
>
> Raz
>

Am tired to hear that what is you point. mine its very clear sun. shit uuuuuuuuppppppppp - Dany

> Muah hahaha, things are getting fun again!!
> Oooo..the drama is great
>
> TheDarkAbyss
>


When twilight dims the skies above
Recalling thrills of our love
There's one thing I'm certain of
Return...
I will...
to old...
BRAZIL.

> I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> ____________________________________________________________
> 27/10/2002
>
> There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have released
> in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While this
> sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region switch
> option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's contain
> incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return for
> many addresses when compared to real hardware.
>
> It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the future so
> good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good XOR's. The
> reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with using
> region switching in CPS2 games.
>
> It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with these
> hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any emulator as
> they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
>
> ____________________________________________________________
>
> So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the CPS2
> encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run unxored
> program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if anyone's
> familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored games (ie
> progear)?
>
> Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less for
> any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
>

To be honest I think The Raz Files is probably pretty accurate, or at least my bits are. Sounds pretty bad, but there's a few importants points

1 - The summary only shows one side, that of Raz/my announcements to the world. It doesn't show what people were saying the other way, so it's like listening to one side of a phone conversion

2 - It sounds pretty bad that I mistook Nebula for a fake, however I once got something labelled 'GeneLemu' or something through my e-mail. The guy said it was his new Megadrive emulator to beta test it and let me know what I thought - I checked it out on one of my PCs and it was a virus.
So since then I've never trusted any .exes people send me, unless they have a homepage (which Nebula didn't when I got the e-mail). I felt a total arse afterwards...

3 - Ok we were a bit harsh on these people writing emu-skeptic pages like the Raz Files, but then again is there any harm in delaying talking about this stuff for a few months?

e.g If a new emulator comes out and the author is being an arsehole, doesn't mean it's a good idea to say that at the time ... just wait a few months and then say what you feel. Saying it at the time just increases the chance that the guy is going to 'spit the dummy', making us all lose out


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > Muah hahaha, things are getting fun again!!
> > Oooo..the drama is great
> >
> > TheDarkAbyss
> >
>
>
> When twilight dims the skies above
> Recalling thrills of our love
> There's one thing I'm certain of
> Return...
> I will...
> to old...
> BRAZIL.
>




http://www.pign.net

pTeX will reveal many secrets........

> Its all just so funny.

Well this is all new to me, what is funny is all the people that donated to you to get the encryption figured out and all the world has got is more free games. Whats even funnier is who got all the money?

I don't care what you do, I only ever point out to your followers the truth. You could do the same by putting a "I don't care about figuring out the encryption, I got to play the games on my pc and got loads of donations" message on cps2shock.com

smf

> So, in the end, I guess neither one of us, has come any closer to understanding
> the true nature of the encryption,

It's unlikely to be state based like the fd1094, unless Razoola has kept that quiet. However the key could be just as big. Whats _really_ funny is that figuring out the encryption is very unlikely to make it possible to figure out the keys, you'll need access to all the boards.

The downside is you could potentially encrypt one game so that it will run on another working board, but getting eproms to replace the mask roms will cost more than buying a board & you could already do it with the phoenix roms anyway.

Doing something in a half arsed way definately does put people off doing it for real, I don't play games in MAME so getting it to run is my only motivation. Any of the PSX games that are added by someone else are ignored. Yes I can be an arsehole like razoola, but at least I admit it :-)

smf

> > Its all just so funny.
>
> Well this is all new to me, what is funny is all the people that donated to you
> to get the encryption figured out and all the world has got is more free games.

That is a bloody good point. This whole situation is a bit ****ed up if you look at it like that. The whole point was to figure out the encryption... If you want to play these games you can get the PSX version or something.

The only reason to ever send in boards was to get the encryption figured out. After all, why would anyone who has a board want to devalue it by getting it emulated.


Oh this all sucks - the whole Final Burn CPS2 XOR saga is just getting worse and worse. Yuck - rewind my life to 2001 and start over :-P
And I'm the worst, I was like 'free gamez, free gamez' -- seems like we haven't actually achieved ANYTHING of any lasting value here. Apart from devaluing a load of peoples boards and pissing off Capcom.

Oh I don't know.... screw all this frigging emulation politics. Why can't we go back to the old simple "OOO - it's a Megadrive console, lets emulate it". That was simple back then...




> Whats even funnier is who got all the money?
>
> I don't care what you do, I only ever point out to your followers the truth. You
> could do the same by putting a "I don't care about figuring out the encryption,
> I got to play the games on my pc and got loads of donations" message on
> cps2shock.com
>
> smf
>


Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery

> > > Its all just so funny.
> >
> > Well this is all new to me, what is funny is all the people that donated to
> you
> > to get the encryption figured out and all the world has got is more free
> games.
>
> That is a bloody good point. This whole situation is a bit ****ed up if you look
> at it like that. The whole point was to figure out the encryption... If you want
> to play these games you can get the PSX version or something.
>
> The only reason to ever send in boards was to get the encryption figured out.
> After all, why would anyone who has a board want to devalue it by getting it
> emulated.
>
>
> Oh this all sucks - the whole Final Burn CPS2 XOR saga is just getting worse and
> worse. Yuck - rewind my life to 2001 and start over :-P
> And I'm the worst, I was like 'free gamez, free gamez' -- seems like we haven't
> actually achieved ANYTHING of any lasting value here. Apart from devaluing a
> load of peoples boards and pissing off Capcom.
>
> Oh I don't know.... screw all this frigging emulation politics. Why can't we go
> back to the old simple "OOO - it's a Megadrive console, lets emulate it". That
> was simple back then...
>
>
>
>
> > Whats even funnier is who got all the money?
> >
> > I don't care what you do, I only ever point out to your followers the truth.
> You
> > could do the same by putting a "I don't care about figuring out the
> encryption,
> > I got to play the games on my pc and got loads of donations" message on
> > cps2shock.com
> >
> > smf
> >
>
>
> Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
>

sorry...always wanted to say that..lol


TheDarkAbyss

> Why can't we go
> back to the old simple "OOO - it's a Megadrive console, lets emulate it". That
> was simple back then...

Because there already are good megadrive emulators, unfortunately not open source. Why not download MESS and improve that :-)

It's already been mentioned elsewhere, but emulator programmers either quit the scene or join mamedev. The rare few ones can still find motivation in a scene where everyone bitches.

smf

> is back!
>
> huzza!
>
> damn this thread sure feels like a time machine ;)
>
> >
> >
> >
> > This Retrogames Year 2002 Thread Emulator is so accurate, feels just like the
> > original thing! All the same characters and conversations ;)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > > I saw the following over at cps2shock,
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > > 27/10/2002
> > > >
> > > > There seems to be someone making quick hacks of XOR files we have
> > released
> > > > in the past to get games running which don't currently have XORs. While
> this
> > > > sounds a good thing it's actually no different than using the region
> switch
> > > > option in kawaks for example. The big problem is that these new XOR's
> > contain
> > > > incorrect information in relation to what the real encryption would return
> > for
> > > > many addresses when compared to real hardware.
> > > >
> > > > It also makes it less likely for these games to be donated in the
> future
> > > so
> > > > good XOR's can be created as people will think they already have good
> XOR's.
> > > The
> > > > reality is these new hacked XOR's are prone to all the bugs that come with
> > > using
> > > > region switching in CPS2 games.
> > > >
> > > > It's for these reasons that I want it known I have nothing to do with
> > > these
> > > > hacks and I would advise against them being used officially in any
> emulator
> > as
> > > > they cannot guarantee an accurate game.
> > > >
> > > > ____________________________________________________________
> > > >
> > > > So does this mean someone may have made some progress on understanding the
> > > CPS2
> > > > encryption? I'd imagine, its not an easy task to have been able to run
> > > unxored
> > > > program roms using xors from a different country revision. And if
> anyone's
> > > > familiar with this, does this hacked xor thing apply to unique unxored
> games
> > > (ie
> > > > progear)?
> > > >
> > > > Not to sound like a rom whore or anything, I personally couldn't care less
> > for
> > > > any of the remaining cps2 games...I'm just curious, thats all :)
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Emulation is the sincerest form of flattery
> >
>

Am tired to hear that what is you point. mine its very clear sun. shit uuuuuuuuppppppppp - Dany