Progear sux.

Pretty sprites, if not overly derivative of past games. Decent graphics. Zero imagination, zero innovation - just another cut n' paste shooter.

Look at Forgotten Worlds - new twists and turns at every step. Or even look at Defender, which had way more gameplay variety than Progear and tons of similar cookie cutter shmups.

Hard to believe sometimes that Capcom is the company that made so many groundbreaking arcade titles in the old days, now all they do is rehashes of rehashes. Yeah I know Progear is by Cave, but still.

If I ever actually saw Progear in an arcade (which I probably never will) I'd play it once or twice and basically sum it up in one word: forgettable.

Amazing how a mediocre shmup could be the center of such a "political" commotion. Now Puzz Loop 2 - that's probably a good game, more worthy of a namecalling war than Progear.


-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> Progear sux.
>
> [...]
>
> If I ever actually saw Progear in an arcade (which I probably never will) I'd
> play it once or twice and basically sum it up in one word: forgettable.

So, this basically means you are hoarding r0mZ!!!!!11

HAW!

Ok, just a lame joke.

> Amazing how a mediocre shmup could be the center of such a "political"
> commotion.

Since when the size of a flame war is directly proportional to the niftines of a game? It is quite the opposite.

> Progear sux.

I just finished the game. Pretty short at only 5 levels. If you are a Cave shooter fan, you will probably like it. If you arent, then move right along. Since when has an arcade game made in 2001 been innovative anyhow?

Personally, the above aside, I didn't mind this game at all. A mindless shooter - yes, but also one that could be mastered with the right amount of luck and skill. I've drooled over too many screenshots of this one over the years to be forgettable and the game is decent overall. I guess we will see if I'm still playing it in a months time. :)

> > Amazing how a mediocre shmup could be the center of such a "political"
> > commotion.
>
> Since when the size of a flame war is directly proportional to the niftines of a
> game? It is quite the opposite.
>

Hmm. I guess you're right. I can't recall if any of the rom dumping fiascos ever focused around a really great game, I guess not.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> > Progear sux.
>
> I just finished the game. Pretty short at only 5 levels. If you are a Cave
> shooter fan, you will probably like it. If you arent, then move right along.
> Since when has an arcade game made in 2001 been innovative anyhow?
>

I know. But there's always that hope that they might actually try something, ever so small, away from the mindless formula.

> Personally, the above aside, I didn't mind this game at all. A mindless shooter
> - yes, but also one that could be mastered with the right amount of luck and
> skill. I've drooled over too many screenshots of this one over the years to be
> forgettable and the game is decent overall. I guess we will see if I'm still
> playing it in a months time. :)
>

I bet you won't. It's just "hot" right now cuz of the Guru fiasco and because the screenshots looked so nice. Like most of the "political" romz, this one will be forgotten in a few weeks. And people will just go back to playing Moon Patrol or Xbox or whatever. ;)

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> > Progear sux.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > If I ever actually saw Progear in an arcade (which I probably never will) I'd
> > play it once or twice and basically sum it up in one word: forgettable.
>
> So, this basically means you are hoarding r0mZ!!!!!11
>
> HAW!
>

Nah, I just happened to be around when it was posted today on the newsgroups.

> Ok, just a lame joke.
>

Any joke is better than the flame wars we've been having over this incredibly average game.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> Pretty sprites, if not overly derivative of past games. Decent graphics. Zero
> imagination, zero innovation - just another cut n' paste shooter.


Have to agree.... Seeing nothing but screenies all this time
and never actually seeing the real arcade machine in my area
I was hoping that it would live up to the hype.

Also yep good point on the fact that it seems that the really
good games don't raise much of a fuss only the lamer ones do.

Oh well atleast it is a game that is worth playing if only once
or twice ;-)

Renegade

Hey! seen the new game called Asteroids ?!?!
http://mamefan.freeservers.com/

I remember picking up Gigawing around the time it was emulated. My sweetie occassionally watched the screen and when it was over *I finished the game* she said, "You paid $16 for a fifteen minute shoot 'em up? What a waste of money! When I told her the fuss over the ROMS she couldn't imagine all the time being wasted for a game that is so incredibly short...

Ok, it's longer than 15 minutes, but it's short...

I still enjoy playing it occassionally, but I prefer Time Pilot...

:Shrug:

> Hard to believe sometimes that Capcom is the company that made so many
> groundbreaking arcade titles in the old days, now all they do is rehashes of
> rehashes. Yeah I know Progear is by Cave, but still.

This is what I've been saying about Capcom for the LAST TWELVE YEARS. Finally, someone else notices!

> I still enjoy playing it occassionally, but I prefer Time Pilot...

Time Pilot's better than both =)


RELAX and just have fun.
Remember, it's all about the games.
Mr. Do!'s Arcade

I was wondering how long it would take to be posted on the newsgroups. I won't play it anyway.

Pr3ttyF1y Plz

> I remember picking up Gigawing around the time it was emulated. My sweetie
> occassionally watched the screen and when it was over *I finished the game* she
> said, "You paid $16 for a fifteen minute shoot 'em up? What a waste of money!
> When I told her the fuss over the ROMS she couldn't imagine all the time being
> wasted for a game that is so incredibly short...
>
> Ok, it's longer than 15 minutes, but it's short...

Progear is basically the same thing only turned to the side instead. Mindless and nice looking. That's about it. Play the Japanese version if you decide the dl the roms, it has voices missing from the USA one that at least give the game a minor extra bit of personality.

I would definitely NOT buy Progear, not even if it was only $16. 50 cents in an arcade maybe, no more.

> I still enjoy playing it occassionally, but I prefer Time Pilot...
>
> :Shrug:

Time Pilot has more interesting gameplay. Seriously.

I don't know why I'm so bitter toward it, I guess it's just my sense of wasted potential. Just think of all those old shooters from the 80's which really did at least TRY to offer something new and/or improved. It's like all the recent shooters were made with a SHMUP version of MUGEN, you know? Like playing Beats Of Rage PAKS - sure they look different, and many look really great, but after a few moments it becomes miserably obvious the game is THE SAME.

SHMUPS can be inventive, but companies don't bother. They haven't for maybe 10 years or more. Sure the graphics got really great, but everyone is so stuck on a formula. It's the same game with new graphics. Play the 80's shooters, and each major title is very different, has some new twist or something unique about it.

I've babbled enough for now... But I suspect you'll agree with much of what I said.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> I know. But there's always that hope that they might actually try something,

Treasure apparently owns the rights to trying something new with shoot em' ups.

I like Progear, and in my opinion you can never have enough shooters.

Kai

But I NEEEEEED to complete my CPS2 archive... so I got everything I need from usenet.

Who cares about the roms, its all about the Benjam... er... Status.

Theory: roms of good games don't create politics because whoever releases them gets instant l33t status. For crappy games though, nobody will give a flying fart about them. So there is an inversely proportional tendency to politicize depending on the coolness of the actual game. :-)




[download a life]

Progear is far from being average. But like many other awesome games it does not reveal it's real qualities until you play it - and that's definitely more than for 20 minutes with an unlimited amount of coins. Expecting the question "what actually are the real qualities ?", and considering you are interested in an answer, although I doubt you are, you can visit this page: [/url]http://www.world-of-arcades.com/Cave/Progear/ItemsAndScores.htm[/url]

The rest is playing it. or not. ;)

> Progear sux.
>
> Pretty sprites, if not overly derivative of past games. Decent graphics. Zero
> imagination, zero innovation - just another cut n' paste shooter.
>
> Look at Forgotten Worlds - new twists and turns at every step. Or even look at
> Defender, which had way more gameplay variety than Progear and tons of similar
> cookie cutter shmups.
>
> Hard to believe sometimes that Capcom is the company that made so many
> groundbreaking arcade titles in the old days, now all they do is rehashes of
> rehashes. Yeah I know Progear is by Cave, but still.
>
> If I ever actually saw Progear in an arcade (which I probably never will) I'd
> play it once or twice and basically sum it up in one word: forgettable.
>
> Amazing how a mediocre shmup could be the center of such a "political"
> commotion. Now Puzz Loop 2 - that's probably a good game, more worthy of a
> namecalling war than Progear.
>
>
> -Prophet-
> www.retrogames.com
>

> Progear is far from being average. But like many other awesome games it does not
> reveal it's real qualities until you play it - and that's definitely more than
> for 20 minutes with an unlimited amount of coins.

I don't have an unlimited amount of coins. Oh wait, you mean my keyboard. :P

Yeah, I realize I didn't exactly give it much time (20 minutes is about right) but still, it's largely cookie cutter from what I've seen for years and years.

>Expecting the question "what
> actually are the real qualities ?", and considering you are interested in an
> answer, although I doubt you are, you can visit this page:
> [/url]http://www.world-of->arcades.com/Cave/Progear/ItemsAndScores.htm[/url]

Why would I NOT be interested? I'm not THAT bitter and jaded. So I went and looked. You did a really fine job of explaining the game's fine points, and it's nice to know there's more to it than what's on the surface.

But in the end it's still a formulaic one way shooting game. I'll hold off calling it average until I give it more time. But first impressions were, as I said, that it's a forgettable and mostly typical game.

Just look at all the cool stuff in Forgotten Worlds. The inventive controls, the huge variety of weapons and items, the shops, the amazing variety of levels and layouts, the remarkable music compositions. Etc. Etc. Now THAT is a SHMUP.

Or look at the Metal Slug series - pretty formulaic (it's Contra mostly) but they injected it so full of unexpected surprises and unique touches that the game takes on a life of its own.

Maybe I'm just not a big enough fan of modern SHMUPs. They're more about scoring strategies than variety and level design. And I'm just not that into scores, as much as I am the actual experience of playing.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

It always makes me laugh when people write off modern shmups as cut and paste pieces of shit with shallow and short gameplay.

Nice to see you're still around.

Hope to god Mushihima Sama gets ported to PS2 :(
Any idea if it's as easy as ESPGaluda or if it's more like Dodonpachi Daioujou in terms of difficulty?

Warning Forever
Area 2048
Torus Trooper
Noiz2sa
Every Extend

I'd be glad seeing more of these with such a cool/fun factor, so if anyone knows, post away.

thanks goes to roushi for introducing me to them..

if you haven't checked out already
rRootage
and P47
are damn good!


> Warning Forever
> Area 2048
> Torus Trooper
> Noiz2sa
> Every Extend
>
> I'd be glad seeing more of these with such a cool/fun factor, so if anyone
> knows, post away.
>


---------------------

> Treasure apparently owns the rights to trying something new with shoot em' ups.
>
> I like Progear, and in my opinion you can never have enough shooters.
>
> Kai
>

I can't wait to see the legal fallout from Treasure vs GRev and Treasure vs Success

ABAGames needs to cut the bullshit and make a commercial release. Get that man a full team of artists and musicians but leave all gameplay decisions up to him. His take on the GDarius-syle of using your enemies to build your own ship up made me fill the cup many times over, and his Stun Racer/Internal Section-inspired shooting action thingy manages to throw me into a siezure every time. UnF.

I just wish i could forget all about Silpheed: The Lost Planet :(

> SHMUPS can be inventive, but companies don't bother. They haven't for maybe 10
> years or more.

1996's Sexy Parodius violently contests that statement, as does 1999's Guwange.

> Time Pilot has more interesting gameplay. Seriously.

Yeah, I was serious when I mentioned Time Pilot, I bought the Playstation version and the Gameboy Advance version. MAME kicks both of their asses, but each is fun in their own unique way...

> SHMUPS can be inventive, but companies don't bother. They haven't for maybe 10
> years or more. Sure the graphics got really great, but everyone is so stuck on a
> formula. It's the same game with new graphics. Play the 80's shooters, and each
> major title is very different, has some new twist or something unique about it.
>
> I've babbled enough for now... But I suspect you'll agree with much of what I
> said.
>
> -Prophet-
> www.retrogames.com
>
Well Iridion 2 *Gameboy Advance* is very nice, so are Raiden 1 & 2 *I have Raiden 2 for the PC* Gradius Galaxies *Game boy Advance* is nice...

But *most* shooters in the 90s - 2000s aren't very innovative...

While I joke about having forbidden ROMs and such, I tend to play early 80s games in MAME...

Oh yeah, Charline gave me R-Type DX after I kept 'borrowing' it from her, it's a fun game on the Gmeboy Color as well. I need to get R-Type 3 sometime...

> > SHMUPS can be inventive, but companies don't bother. They haven't for maybe 10
> > years or more.
>
> 1996's Sexy Parodius violently contests that statement, as does 1999's Guwange.
>

I played Guwange to the end courtesy of MAME. It was very enjoyable, but I don't recall much innovation. The gameplay was shoot and dodge and powerup your weapons IIRC. What was very cool about it (this was a while ago mind you that I played it) was the presentation and designs - the whole mythological Japanese theme was great, and some of the bosses were amazing to look at.

Sexy Parodius - is it more than Parodius/Gradius in terms of gameplay? The presentation and graphics are top notch and very, you might say frighteningly, imaginitive. But it's still "just" the Gradius formula (a really great formula, granted) again.

Anyway, I'm just being whiny on the subject and I know that. I should just be glad I get to try most of these games at all thanks to MAME and other emus. But I do think SHMUP _gameplay_ could be expanded and experimented with more than it is. High score schemes are nice but don't impress me so much. Example: I recall posting about a freeware SHMUP last year in fact, where you basically had the dead ships you destroyed attach to your ship, creating this massive yet slower moving hunk as you kept playing. What a great concept - I'd like to see THAT type of innovation in commercial SHMUPs. Maybe it could revive the genre a bit too.

Ikaruga was cool at least, with the black/white switching concept. It's not a game that will appeal to everyone, it's not personally my favorite altho I do own the Gamecube version, but it's an example of at least trying something a little different.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

I can't believe this is a '2K1' game. Gigawing is better, many shooters are better...
It's boring, why was this ROM hoarded? Someone thought having this ROM made them 3l33t3?
I can think of many other shooters I'd rather play,,,
Yes, I'm keeping the ROM, there's the 'off' chance I might wanna play it again, but it's NOT in my 'favorites' and it will never be in that list! LOL ;)
Gyruss, Galaga, Gaplus, Time Pilot, U.N.Squadron, Gradius, Pulstar, Gigawing, they're in my favorites *among others*, but Progear? NOT!

> Anyway, I'm just being whiny on the subject and I know that. I should just be
> glad I get to try most of these games at all thanks to MAME and other emus. But
> I do think SHMUP _gameplay_ could be expanded and experimented with more than it
> is. High score schemes are nice but don't impress me so much. Example: I recall
> posting about a freeware SHMUP last year in fact, where you basically had the
> dead ships you destroyed attach to your ship, creating this massive yet slower
> moving hunk as you kept playing. What a great concept - I'd like to see THAT
> type of innovation in commercial SHMUPs. Maybe it could revive the genre a bit
> too.
>

That concept was an evolution of GDarius' capture feature where you could capture enemies and have them fight alongside you.

> Ikaruga was cool at least, with the black/white switching concept. It's not a
> game that will appeal to everyone, it's not personally my favorite altho I do
> own the Gamecube version, but it's an example of at least trying something a
> little different.
>

There's been a lot of subtle innovation over the last few years, though most have been scoring based (chains, multipliers, etc).

Loops are nothing new but they're something that Cave really makes good use of, where you have to earn the second loop and then at the end of that get to fight the real end boss. The first loop bosses of Dodonpachi and Dodonpachi Daioujou are underwhelming, but the second loop bosses are infuckingsane.

Psyvariar's buzz system (seen in Perfect Cherry Blossom as the graze system or whatever and seen in Shikigami no Shiro) was pretty awesome. The whole game was scorebased... sure, you could just blow your way through it, but that just wasn't fun. It was way more fun to buzz every fucking thing you could, level up, and buzz some more. When you leveled up you became invincible for a short amount of time and allowed you to buzz the shit out of swarms of bullets...which allowed you to level up and....yea... it's crazy as hell and it's quite enjoyable. Psyvariar Revision and Medium Unit are both budget titles in Japan right now and the sequel is available on a variety of platforms..i recommend importing 'em since we're not likely to see the arcade counterparts emulated anytime soon.

Guwange was about much more than powering up and megabombing the boss, as well. but don't take my word for it

Gotta love the gameplay of Takumi's games, too. I love seeing how the reflect force changes between Gigawing, Mars Matrix, and Gigawing 2, not to mention the scoring system as it moves from insane to fucking insane to !$#%$%$##%@$%@%@$ (in Night Raid, it's possible to drive your score into the negatives very easilly..the game keeps track of the high scores, low scores, and closest to zero scores).

Don't forget the refinement of the dual plane gameplay from Xevious. The addition of the lock on in Rayforce was taken to a whole new level in Soukyugurentai (one of the best damn shmups on the Saturn imo)

> I can't believe this is a '2K1' game. Gigawing is better, many shooters are
> better...
> It's boring, why was this ROM hoarded? Someone thought having this ROM made them
> 3l33t3?
> I can think of many other shooters I'd rather play,,,
> Yes, I'm keeping the ROM, there's the 'off' chance I might wanna play it again,
> but it's NOT in my 'favorites' and it will never be in that list! LOL ;)
> Gyruss, Galaga, Gaplus, Time Pilot, U.N.Squadron, Gradius, Pulstar, Gigawing,
> they're in my favorites *among others*, but Progear? NOT!
>

We agree. :)

Sorry Sheep (if you are still reading the thread). I did give it another whirl. It's not total crap, it's got some nice aspects, but I still feel it's a forgettable title overall. But to each his own right? Thanks again for the very good page you did on the game.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> That concept was an evolution of GDarius' capture feature where you could
> capture enemies and have them fight alongside you.

Yes, true. Darius Gaiden had that too. I loved that game on my Saturn. Anyway, it's a cool concept. And that game I referenced added a lot to it, because yoru ship got huge and heavy etc.

> Guwange was about much more than powering up and megabombing the boss, as well.
> but don't take my word for it

Good page on Guwange. Thanks.

>
> Gotta love the gameplay of Takumi's games, too. I love seeing how the reflect
> force changes between Gigawing, Mars Matrix, and Gigawing 2, not to mention the
> scoring system as it moves from insane to fucking insane to !$#%$%$##%@$%@%@$
> (in Night Raid, it's possible to drive your score into the negatives very
> easilly..the game keeps track of the high scores, low scores, and closest to
> zero scores).

I liked Mars Matrix actually. It's a good blast and I love the spacey look and the bright shiny colors. Very psychedelic. :)

>
> Don't forget the refinement of the dual plane gameplay from Xevious. The
> addition of the lock on in Rayforce was taken to a whole new level in
> Soukyugurentai (one of the best damn shmups on the Saturn imo)

Never played that. But Rayforce is one of my favorite SHMUPs ever. I have it on my Saturn, unfortunately it got the stupid "Galactic Attack" title in the USA, but the game was still awesome. I would probably adore Soukyugurentai if it's like Rayforce.

-Prophet-
www.retrogames.com

> Progear sux.
>
> Pretty sprites, if not overly derivative of past games. Decent graphics. Zero
> imagination, zero innovation - just another cut n' paste shooter.
>
> Look at Forgotten Worlds - new twists and turns at every step. Or even look at
> Defender, which had way more gameplay variety than Progear and tons of similar
> cookie cutter shmups.
>
> Hard to believe sometimes that Capcom is the company that made so many
> groundbreaking arcade titles in the old days, now all they do is rehashes of
> rehashes. Yeah I know Progear is by Cave, but still.
>
> If I ever actually saw Progear in an arcade (which I probably never will) I'd
> play it once or twice and basically sum it up in one word: forgettable.
>
> Amazing how a mediocre shmup could be the center of such a "political"
> commotion. Now Puzz Loop 2 - that's probably a good game, more worthy of a
> namecalling war than Progear.
>
>
> -Prophet-
> www.retrogames.com
>
Stupid fucks you were capcom...should've stuck to fighters back then.