I finally managed to emulate CPS1 hw on JEmu2, and Street Fighter 2 is now fully playable.
Check out http://www.gagaplay.com

Have fun,
Erik

> I finally managed to emulate CPS1 hw on JEmu2, and Street Fighter 2 is now fully
> playable.
> Check out http://www.gagaplay.com
>
> Have fun,
> Erik
>

You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as well?
Why?
There's many things you can't do in applets you know...

> You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as well?
> Why?
> There's many things you can't do in applets you know...
>
People are just never happy, you can cut your arm for them and they will rant because you'll still have another one...

> You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as well?

A Java emu is great, but if you have to install it and have fullscreen and stuff, surely MAME would work exactly the same and be faster?

I think it would be better if it was directly in a webpage...

> Why?
> There's many things you can't do in applets you know...
>


Newsdee's Love, Glory, and Discussion Boards

> > You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> > fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as well?
>
> A Java emu is great, but if you have to install it and have fullscreen and
> stuff, surely MAME would work exactly the same and be faster?
>
> I think it would be better if it was directly in a webpage...
>

Compared to MAME or java applets, there's a few things going for JEmu2 (some of which is directly related to it being developed in Java and deployed using webstart):
* Installation is as easy as it can be: You click a link on a webpage and it gets installed and started automatically. You don't have to manually download a file, unzip, click set.exe etc. You even don't have to click 'next' a few times, just one click on a webpage and you get a menu to start a game immediately :-) Getting MAME32, install it, hunt for roms and play a few games can be quite a hassle for non technical people.
* Your installation is updated automatically, so you always have the latest version.
* I know it works on Mac and Linux too, even though I've never seen it work on that because I don't have a mac or linux box.
* JEmu2 saves high-scores on the internet. I personally think this adds a lot to the fun.
* Unlike an applet, you can use it offline too.
* Unlike an applet, you can play the games full screen and vsync'ed (vsync is enabled by default when using full-screen, unlike MAME)
* With applets, there's always versioning problems and browser integration issues. The last time I checked a java applet game, I couldn't play because my browser uses the same keys the applet used. With web start, you have much more control.

But of course, it will never really compare to MAME, but then again, MAME has a slightly different goal. JEmu2 is all about playing the games.
And of course MAME is faster, but JEmu2 is fast enough for the games it currently supports so who cares?

> You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as well?

You can change the size of applets using simple HTML properties, you can -certainly- use them offline, yet have the ABILITY to play them through a browser (wherever and whenever you wish, mind you).

Jars are cross platform and are no harder to run than a web start, if you really wish to have the fullscreen stuff.

With a web start app, what if I want to archive it on a CD? What if I want to give it to a friend? Your .jnlp only works until the hosted app is removed from the web. -Completely- useless, IMO.



> Why?
> There's many things you can't do in applets you know...
>

>
> You can change the size of applets using simple HTML properties,

Yes and no. The program has to be able to handle that (The java applet CottAGE for example will crash if the applet's dimensions are not as expected), and in the case of emulators, the neccessary scaling will certainly not be hardware accellerated. So yes, you can make it bigger using html, but the result will be slow.

JEmu2 is rendered with the same resolution as the original, but rendered to a texture, which is scaled to the size of the screen. This takes no performance hit and looks much nicer.

> you can -certainly- use them offline, yet have the ABILITY to play them through a
> browser (wherever and whenever you wish, mind you).

You could use it offline, but the way to do it is not very obvious to the average user to say the least. Applets were simply not *meant* to be played offline.
And I assume you're not talking about the applet viewer, are you? It's a development tool, only present in the java SDK as commandline tool! Not a very sensible option to run applets to the average user IMHO.

>
> Jars are cross platform and are no harder to run than a web start, if you really
> wish to have the fullscreen stuff.

Lemme see:

1) Click a link, download the jars, create some directory for it, put the jars there, double click the correct start script (depending on the platform you use), hope that you have the right version of java, if not: go to some other site and download java, play, do it all again when a new version is released.

2) Click a link and play. (Updating is done automatically as well as installing the required java version if needed)

Option 2 looks a lot easier to me.

>
> With a web start app, what if I want to archive it on a CD? What if I want to

Yes, you have a point there, although there will be an export option in Java Web Start to do just that.

> give it to a friend?

Let him click the link. Much easier than let him install it manually.

> Your .jnlp only works until the hosted app is removed
> from the web.

No, it will still work. It will just not be updated anymore.
Applets will be just gone, unless you went through the lengths of downloading the html and jars, which again is not very obvious for the average user.

> -Completely- useless, IMO.

I certainly don't think so, but you're entitled to your own opinion.
If I would make it a download, one important advantage over MAME would be gone: ease of installation and use.
I've got various email reactions from users who thanked me for JEmu2 because they didn't know how to get MAME to work. Not everyone is a nerd like us, you know.

> > > You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> > > fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as
> well?
> >
> > A Java emu is great, but if you have to install it and have fullscreen and
> > stuff, surely MAME would work exactly the same and be faster?
> >
> > I think it would be better if it was directly in a webpage...
> >
>
> Compared to MAME or java applets, there's a few things going for JEmu2 (some of
> which is directly related to it being developed in Java and deployed using
> webstart):
> * Installation is as easy as it can be: You click a link on a webpage and it
> gets installed and started automatically. You don't have to manually download a
> file, unzip, click set.exe etc. You even don't have to click 'next' a few times,
> just one click on a webpage and you get a menu to start a game immediately :-)
> Getting MAME32, install it, hunt for roms and play a few games can be quite a
> hassle for non technical people.
> * Your installation is updated automatically, so you always have the latest
> version.
> * I know it works on Mac and Linux too, even though I've never seen it work on
> that because I don't have a mac or linux box.
> * JEmu2 saves high-scores on the internet. I personally think this adds a lot to
> the fun.
> * Unlike an applet, you can use it offline too.
> * Unlike an applet, you can play the games full screen and vsync'ed (vsync is
> enabled by default when using full-screen, unlike MAME)
> * With applets, there's always versioning problems and browser integration
> issues. The last time I checked a java applet game, I couldn't play because my
> browser uses the same keys the applet used. With web start, you have much more
> control.
>
> But of course, it will never really compare to MAME, but then again, MAME has a
> slightly different goal. JEmu2 is all about playing the games.
> And of course MAME is faster, but JEmu2 is fast enough for the games it
> currently supports so who cares?
>

Well sure it's all fine, but all I meant was it might be an idea to fit the emulator into a different 'niche' - the in-browser no-installation niche. Makes sense to me. (Whereas if you are writing a stand-alone one you might as well use C for speed.)

But it's up to you ;-)


Newsdee's Love, Glory, and Discussion Boards

> > > > You prefer a tiny, non-fullscreen applet embedded in a webpage over a
> > > > fullscreen, vsync'ed opengl, rendered app, which you can use offline as
> > well?
> > >
> > > A Java emu is great, but if you have to install it and have fullscreen and
> > > stuff, surely MAME would work exactly the same and be faster?
> > >
> > > I think it would be better if it was directly in a webpage...
> > >
> >
> > Compared to MAME or java applets, there's a few things going for JEmu2 (some
> of
> > which is directly related to it being developed in Java and deployed using
> > webstart):
> > * Installation is as easy as it can be: You click a link on a webpage and it
> > gets installed and started automatically. You don't have to manually download
> a
> > file, unzip, click set.exe etc. You even don't have to click 'next' a few
> times,
> > just one click on a webpage and you get a menu to start a game immediately :-)
> > Getting MAME32, install it, hunt for roms and play a few games can be quite a
> > hassle for non technical people.
> > * Your installation is updated automatically, so you always have the latest
> > version.
> > * I know it works on Mac and Linux too, even though I've never seen it work on
> > that because I don't have a mac or linux box.
> > * JEmu2 saves high-scores on the internet. I personally think this adds a lot
> to
> > the fun.
> > * Unlike an applet, you can use it offline too.
> > * Unlike an applet, you can play the games full screen and vsync'ed (vsync is
> > enabled by default when using full-screen, unlike MAME)
> > * With applets, there's always versioning problems and browser integration
> > issues. The last time I checked a java applet game, I couldn't play because my
> > browser uses the same keys the applet used. With web start, you have much more
> > control.
> >
> > But of course, it will never really compare to MAME, but then again, MAME has
> a
> > slightly different goal. JEmu2 is all about playing the games.
> > And of course MAME is faster, but JEmu2 is fast enough for the games it
> > currently supports so who cares?
> >
>
> Well sure it's all fine, but all I meant was it might be an idea to fit the
> emulator into a different 'niche' - the in-browser no-installation niche. Makes
> sense to me. (Whereas if you are writing a stand-alone one you might as well use
> C for speed.)
>
> But it's up to you ;-)

Well, I might wrap an applet around it sometime but as far as I can see it, JEmu2 is maybe not as stand-alone as you see it.
Web Start for me is kind of in between an applet and a stand-alone application. Some see web start as 'applets on steroids'.

Whatever you're using it's useless on Linux. Since portability is part of your pitch I find that amusing.

Oh, and ease of use or not, including ROM data in the download makes you a very tempting legal target. Not everything MAME does is to make sure it's hard to use.

> Oh, and ease of use or not, including ROM data in the download makes you a very
> tempting legal target. Not everything MAME does is to make sure it's hard to
> use.
>

I was wondering about that.

> Whatever you're using it's useless on Linux. Since portability is part of your
> pitch I find that amusing.

Amuse yourself all you like, but I know it works on Linux, or at least it *might* work on linux. Maybe not your particular Linux installation, but on many it does work. Linux is a notoriously difficult platform to guarantee compatibility for desktop apps anyway (there's a reason that Linux is often referred to as 'ghetto unix').
One catch is that you need a good video driver with full hardware accellerated openGL support. Software openGL (deliberately) doesn't work.
This is not only on Linux, but on all supported platforms.
But anyway, I just included the linux binaries for just in case someone with Linux wants to take a shot. If it works, great because I didn't have to do anything for it, if it doesn't, tough luck.
I might include a non openGL, pure java renderer in a later stage for compatibility, though. Perhaps an applet.
But if you would like to help me debug it to make it work on your linux installation, that would be great, but I guess you have better things to do.

>
> Oh, and ease of use or not, including ROM data in the download makes you a very tempting legal target.

Strictly speaking, you're right but it's a very grey area.
I personally believe that JEmu2 has a too small audience and the games are too old to cause any real damage to anyone.
The damage has been done already with all the really popular and groundbraking emulators, the resulting rom sites, etc. JEmu2 away doesn't make any difference.
But if a rightful copyright holder will make objections, I'll take action; It's not my intention to hurt anyone. But I don't think I am.

> Not everything MAME does is to make sure it's hard to
> use.
>

I never said that. I only said JEmu2 is easier for many people. Don't twist my words around, thank you.

> Strictly speaking, you're right but it's a very grey area.

Don't delude yourself. There's nothing "grey" about it. It's illegal, period. The only thing that's "grey" is whether or not you'll get nailed for doing it. If you're fine with that risk, more power to you.

> > Strictly speaking, you're right but it's a very grey area.
>
> Don't delude yourself. There's nothing "grey" about it. It's illegal, period.

Which is why I said "strictly speaking, you're right".

> The only thing that's "grey" is whether or not you'll get nailed for doing it.
>

That was *exactly* my point. I can 'get nailed' for inflicting damage to someone, but I think the damage has already been done for years. This is what I meant by 'grey area'.
Once again, if a rightful copyright owner asks me to remove their work, I'll respectfully take action.

> But if you would like to help me debug it to make it work on your linux
> installation, that would be great, but I guess you have better things to do.

I could probably help. I do have accelerated OpenGL working - I maintain a multiplatform arcade emulator called "ZiNc" which needs it. And I can run .JARs fine, but I've never seen the file format you were using.

> > > Strictly speaking, you're right but it's a very grey area.
> >
> > Don't delude yourself. There's nothing "grey" about it. It's illegal, period.
>
> Which is why I said "strictly speaking, you're right".
>
> > The only thing that's "grey" is whether or not you'll get nailed for doing it.
> >
>
> That was *exactly* my point. I can 'get nailed' for inflicting damage to
> someone, but I think the damage has already been done for years. This is what I
> meant by 'grey area'.
> Once again, if a rightful copyright owner asks me to remove their work, I'll
> respectfully take action.
>

Hello??? You're including the roms with the emulator, right? What Aaron just pointed out was there is no "grey" area in that and he's right. You can legally distribute your emulator since it is your work, but if you aren't the legal copyright owner of the romfiles, then distributing the roms with it is definitely illegal. You might not necessarily get caught, but don't kid yourself.

> Hello??? You're including the roms with the emulator, right? What Aaron just
> pointed out was there is no "grey" area in that and he's right. You can legally
> distribute your emulator since it is your work, but if you aren't the legal
> copyright owner of the romfiles, then distributing the roms with it is
> definitely illegal. You might not necessarily get caught, but don't kid
> yourself.

I'm not kidding myself, I know full well that strictly speaking he's right. Maybe I didn't make myself clear enough in that, but that *is* what I said.

My point with the 'grey area' remark was that *execution* of the law is one grey area since the law always has to be interpretted. If it wasn't, there would be no point in trials, would there?

As for JEmu2, given the current state of affairs I don't think I really harm anyone, so as I see it, yes, if a copyright holder has objections to what I do, they can definitely use the law to enforce me to remove the roms. And I would respectfully oblige.
But I don't make money from their work, I'm not claiming the games are mine, the roms were already spread for a long time, those titles are not sold anymore for a long time so as far as I can tell, I'm not causing any real damage.
In the context of the current state of affairs, JEmu2's like a firecracker after an a-bomb explosion. A firecracker might be annoying, but it can't be held responsible for the big mushroom cloud.

> > But if you would like to help me debug it to make it work on your linux
> > installation, that would be great, but I guess you have better things to do.
>
> I could probably help. I do have accelerated OpenGL working - I maintain a
> multiplatform arcade emulator called "ZiNc" which needs it. And I can run .JARs
> fine, but I've never seen the file format you were using.
>

Great!

.jnlp is the file format for the 'Java Network Launch Protocol', of which Sun's Java Web Start is the reference implementation. It's just an xml file describing deployment and launching of a program. It should be associated with the Java Web Start executable (javaws).

If you click the .jnlp link on the site and all it does it open in a text editor or something else than start JEmu2, there is a few possibilities you could check:
1) Your version of java doesn't support JNLP (there is no program called 'javaws' in the JRE). I don't know which java distributions support java web start and which don't, but Sun's JRE does since version 1.4. I think as of Java5, java web start is part of the spec.
2) There could be something wrong with the association between the .jnlp's MIME type or file extension and the Java Web Start executable (javaws).

As an aside: it's always 'interesting' to see how java's portability is both its strength and its weakness.

> My point with the 'grey area' remark was that *execution* of the law is one grey
> area since the law always has to be interpretted. If it wasn't, there would be
> no point in trials, would there?

Surely the point in a trial is to work out if you are in fact guilty of the offense? Copyright laws are pretty much cut and dried. You might get away with it, probably the worst thing that will happen is you'll get your hosting pulled. You've just got to cross your fingers that your site never becomes popular.

smf

> People are just never happy, you can cut your arm for them and they will rant
> because you'll still have another one...

Why are you trying to make people happy by cutting off an arm? If they ask you to do it then they are crazy to comply, if they didn't then you are crazy.

Expecting gratitude as an emulator author is a sure fire way to spoil your day.

smf

> > People are just never happy, you can cut your arm for them and they will rant
> > because you'll still have another one...
>
> Why are you trying to make people happy by cutting off an arm? If they ask you
> to do it then they are crazy to comply, if they didn't then you are crazy.
>

I don't think he meant it so literal :-D

> I don't think he meant it so literal :-D

You think?

smf

> > I don't think he meant it so literal :-D
>
> You think?

Sometimes, when I'm having a bright moment and feel like thinking :-P