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SubjectI said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/10/02 05:26 AM



Due to a turn of events in VPForums, I'm going to give them another chance and hence delete my own rants here for now.




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted bycapslock
Posted on10/10/02 10:10 AM



> Due to a turn of events in VPForums, I'm going to give them another chance and hence delete my own rants here for now.






SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byRolandScholz2
Posted on10/10/02 11:46 AM



This really sucks!
In which forum in what thread did you post your 'closing reply' at VPForums?
Please don't punish the users at VPForums for what the moderators have done by not releasing any more versions of your wonderful tables.
The reactions of the moderators to your latest postings at VPForums are totally inacceptable.
:-(




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byPcwaG
Posted on10/10/02 02:46 PM



Sorry to see you go, PacDude.
Drop me a line sometime let me know how things are going won't you?




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted bykristian
Posted on10/10/02 10:09 PM



(I posted this to VP forums as well.)

Quoted, written by PacDude:

"I've done nothing but work by butt off for the community and give it all away freely and in return, I and people like me are treated like 2nd class citizens, just "modders" not real VP authors."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I have noticed similar attitude towards MODS. I did mods, bugfixes and additions for "abandoned" tables like Alien Poker, Cosmic Gunfight, Warlok, Baby Pacman, Flash Gordon, Pinbot. I also have Laser Cue, Earthshaker, 8 ball, MP of Pinbot, and DOZENS of other graphic updates 90% ready on my hard disk. I've also helped various people with their table projects and created tons of playfield images to various table authors. Most of these table authors didn't even bother to thank me for my efforts (in the forums) when their tables were released, but I don't really give a rat's ass. If I can do something to help the community, I'll do it. I love playing those tables. That's the only reward I need.

I also followed the MODding guidelines very strictly, except in Flash Gordon's case (which was a Nicky table). That release was an unauthorized mod and I think some people got the joke and realized the irony when I put it out.

I attempted to do a few VP tables by myself (for example I tried Surf Champ by Gottlieb) but I just realized that I'm not that good of a table designer. I wasn't satisfied and never finished my projects. Most of those old VP/M tables play surprisingly well (Tables by Cutter, Tom Scutt, Gaston, Boris, Andre Needham, etc.). They created amazing tables from such limited material. I probably *could* have rebuilt them from a scratch, but for what reason? Why doing the whole job all over again when other people did those things much better before me?

Why should I do something that I'm not that good at, and what I don't particularly enjoy? I'm not an artist like Scapino, but I can do a lot of technical things to images. If I release a modded version of the old table, it's MY way to give back to the community.

And based on my experience, doing a good graphics MOD is very demanding. And I'm not talking about any Nicky MODs that got released two hours after the original release.

I don't like the attitude that some people have in these forums. 95% of the regular posters are great and helpful, but some unnamed people whine like old women. I had a disagreement with Destruk (it was actually a misunderstanding), but we both solved the issue like real men and buried the hatchet almost immediately. We ALL love pinball, and that subculture is slowly dying or at least getting smaller.

I think it's unforgiveable if WE start whining and arguing about some totally insignificant details, like "should MODded tables get posted to VPM latest table releases or MODS and plugins"

Jesus Christ. Only old WOMEN have time and energy to start fights and arguments about issues like that.

I created a Usenet News group alt.games.mame a couple of years ago, and there has *never* been any negative attitude among the regular posters of the group. Most of those people don't even *create* anything or contribute anything to MAME. They're just fans.

ALL MODders and table authors are creative and talented people and should get respect from others. I don't think many people do these things for personal recognition. They do things for US, for FREE. For the pinball community. And that's exactly how it should be.

Face it, VP and VPM scene is getting smaller. Now that AJ is "off the ball", we don't even have a site that updates all VPM tables regularly. This all is not new and fancy anymore to people who hang around on the Net searching for "freebies". And when it comes to popularity, compared to MAME, VP/VPM is just a side note in everyone's papers. But who cares?

WE love this forum, WE love this community and WE can live together in peace if this ridiculous hair-splitting crap ends right now. We vote if someone sets up a new voting poll for MODding guidelines. Closing threads and voting polls like this is unforgiveable, especially when the thread starter was one of our regular members who contributed a lot to the community. That's just my opinion.

This is the first negative comment I've posted since I came here 12 months ago. I hope it was my last one as well.

Kristian.




SubjectPost deleted by PacDude new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/10/02 10:55 PM






SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byAlexMaroney
Posted on10/11/02 04:10 AM



> poll is open again. But what I see so far is like 300+ reads and a whole 9
> votes, which tells me the average user couldn't care less about the issue (and
> can't even be bothered to even say so in the poll with option 3)

I wouldn't say people don't care PacDude, there are many people (such as myself) who are HUGE fans of VP and equally huge fans of your work who've given up on VP Forums as a very bad job, and did do a long time ago. (After my last ban I certainlt couldn't be bothered trying to re-register.)

Whilst the current moderator and admin structure is in place VP Forums will remain rotten to the core, thousands and thousands of members and only a handful ever bother to post, usually the moderators patting each other on the back for a job well done.

I would say to you (and other VP designers) who are losing heart to stick with it, your work is still appreciated and downloaded by thousands, it isn't sullied by the corrosion at the heart of VP Forums, its worth isn't diminished.

Stick to it, sooner or later, VP Forums will collapse under the weight of its own hypocrisy and the *real* VP fans will get back in the driving seat.




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on10/11/02 04:22 AM



> I wanted an amicable solution
> to the problem that would let people like Nicky come back

Remember, I did come back, at AJ's behest. It lasted for about a week, at which point I was banned again by persons unknown for reasons unspecified, despite not having broken any of the agreed rules for return. Despite several emails to AJ in which he claimed to know nothing about the ban and said he would sort it out, it's still in place four months later. AJ pays lip service to wanting the forums run properly, but his actions demonstrate the truth of the situation.

VP Forums are beyond saving. The Getaway release proves that beyond the remotest doubt. Someone with no bad reputation makes a significant new contribution to a table that is freely moddable. The reaction of the moderators? Ludicrous hairsplitting and covering each other's backs when they were shown to have screwed up.

I see also that the v3.3 version I posted yesterday has been deleted from IR Pinball (but the older version hasn't), despite the table being perfectly "legitimate" for mods and it not breaking any of IR Pinball's rules either.

I hope you keep releasing new work, PacDude, but I hope you simply choose to do it here and not VP Forums. If people have to come here for it, it might open their eyes to the fact that forums about Visual Pinball DON'T have to be run by egomaniac arseholes, and the "community" might yet get to live again the way it used to before it was hijacked by a bunch of power-crazed hypocrites.

NS.




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on10/11/02 04:28 AM



Oh, and remember this, too: Even if VPF opens up polls and stuff again to say "Okay, let the community vote on what we should do", most of the people who are in favour of relaxing any restrictions on mods remain banned and unable to vote anyway.




SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on10/11/02 09:04 AM



> Here's a copy of my closing reply in VPForums, in case the moderators there
> decide to edit or delete it. I've had it with the way they run things and don't
> plan on going back unless there's sweeping changes in moderation.
>
> =======
>
> I take it back. There's a good chance TAF 6.5 or any other table I'm working on
> will not be released, at least not here. I've just about had it up to my head
> with some of the moderators on here and their hypocritical behavior and
> disrespectful and biased policies towards mods and modding authors (see my
> closed poll in the debate area if they heaven't already deleted it and just look
> at the way Plumb responded before he closed it. The modding rules themselves
> say that they are OPEN TO FUTURE DISCUSSION and yet Plumb says "NO" all on his
> own without consulting anyone just to prove he's "da man" and doesn't need AJ to
> approve anything, like he's been invested with the power of a god or something,
> when in reality he's supposed to serving YOU, the community.) (And NO the
> "brain" comment Kinsey refers to there was never intended to be an insult, but
> to show that ALL people, not just authors or moderators should be able to
> anylize and discuss the issue, but since the thread was closed immediately after
> she and Plumb replied, I could never even respond).
>
> Since most of my tables could be considered "mods" as much as anything else
> (including TAF), YES I'm taking it very personally. We have moderators on here
> that insult people like Mitchell ("quit yer damn whining," Kinsey said to him),
> others that make fun of my name and speak to my comments with a condescending
> attitude while stating false statements about modding rules(BJ), yet others that
> close my threads almost as soon as I open them in the debate area (Plumb) even
> though my ideas were perfectly fair and civil and I'm sick of it. The
> moderators, who are supposed to be serving the community in an unbiased,
> non-emotional fashion are instead acting like dictators, dictating all the
> policy and doing whatever they feel like while simultaneously breaking whatever
> rules they feel like. Who is moderating the moderators on here? I've
> complained to AJ, but I doubt he'll care given his waning interest in VP on
> here.
>
> I've done nothing but work by butt off for the community and give it all away
> freely and in return, I and people like me are treated like 2nd class citizens,
> just "modders" not real VP authors. This from authors whose own tables (if they
> even have any) are nowhere near the quality of TAF or TZ. Should I respect
> these moderators who do nothing but insult me and people like me or people like
> Mitchell? "Tii" was banned in a thread for 30 days just for rebutting the BOGUS
> NONSENSE Kinsey spit out at him, including quoting the "quit yer damn whining"
> quote I mentioned above. It was Kinsey that should have been banned. Just like
> the Police who always get away with speeding while giving out speeding tickets
> to others, this place is run by hypocrites (my apologies to the fair and honest
> moderators out there; you don't stand out because you do your job fairly and
> honestly; it's a shame your fellow moderators can't do the same).
>
> I myself was banned from posting all last week because I called BJ on his little
> false modding rule charade! I didn't flame him, but it didn't matter. A few
> moderators who don't like my opinions decided I was out-of-line speaking to him
> that way even though he was insulting me. Clean Richards changed my mind about
> leaving, but after I saw Kid_C treat yet another Modder like he was a criminal
> and Kinsey ban "Tii" for speaking up for himself and watch Plumb ban my thread
> and Kinsey mis-state my intents (therein) for the umpteenth time, I decided I've
> had enough.
>
> If/when I see there are some more reasonable and fair forums where people can
> speak their minds without fear of reprisal from moderators that disagree with
> those opinions, maybe I'll come back. Otherwise... well maybe I'll go hang out
> with Nicky. He offered to let me post on his web site.
>
> No, it's not the lock/mod issue that's driving me away, but the fact that I
> can't even discuss it and also the fact that some of the most active moderators
> are hypocrites that treat people like crap instead of serving the community like
> they're supposed to.
>
> And if any of you have enjoyed my work over the past 16 months, well you know
> full well I'm not making this stuff up and that I've tried to listen to every
> bug report and suggestion made to me. I'm not the kind of person that gets off
> showing off power or by putting people down. Enough is enough, however. As
> some of you might have guessed from my little personal quote, I consider myself
> a very religious person and while Christ did say to turn the other cheek, he
> also told his disciples to leave and shake the dust off their shoes if the
> people in that community refused to hear their message and warnings. Well, I
> think it's time to shake the dust off my shoes as it's become plainly obvious my
> messages of fairness to all authors and reasonable moderating practices is not
> welcome by some here, especially those placed in charge by the very community
> they're supposed to serve.
>
> Like the church elders in Israel in Jesus's time, they're hypocrites. They love
> to eat at the special tables and tithe the people, but they forget all about the
> more important things like generosity and kindness. Seek the Lord while you
> still can for Judgement isn't far off.... Because I came here to talk about
> pinball, I've refrained from doing any preaching, but the sheer fact of the
> matter is that it's my own morality that's forcing me to leave. I don't love
> money or power or fame, but I did like to be generous with the community as I
> really loved to play pinball. But I can't stand to be here another minute
> amidst such dictating hypocrites.
>
> If I have anything further to say, it'll be on RetroGames Pinball board until I
> can find a better set of forums with fair, unbiased moderators because frankly,
> these forums are not a friendly place anymore and are starting to stink to high
> Heaven. If these moderating authors can do as well as Twilight Zone all by
> themselves and without a team effort and without caring about accuracy or the
> suggestions of others, I say let them try. The rest of us should go elswhere.
>
> Goodbye.
>
> -The former poster known as "PacDude"
>
While we may not have agreed 100% on the mod issue, I thought your work on TAF and TZ were Top notch. The 'guidelines' or whatever you want to call the 'rules' that you suggested voting on seemed 'reasonable' IMSHO... I've not ever had a problem sharing information, rather not cared for the idea of watching tables get messed with for no good reason...

But regardless of our diffeences of opinion, you're talented, do a good job of making tables accurate, and will be missed by the community...

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on10/11/02 09:13 AM



> (I posted this to VP forums as well.)
>
> Quoted, written by PacDude:
>
> "I've done nothing but work by butt off for the community and give it all away
> freely and in return, I and people like me are treated like 2nd class citizens,
> just "modders" not real VP authors."
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> I have noticed similar attitude towards MODS. I did mods, bugfixes and additions
> for "abandoned" tables like Alien Poker, Cosmic Gunfight, Warlok, Baby Pacman,
> Flash Gordon, Pinbot. I also have Laser Cue, Earthshaker, 8 ball, MP of Pinbot,
> and DOZENS of other graphic updates 90% ready on my hard disk. I've also helped
> various people with their table projects and created tons of playfield images to
> various table authors. Most of these table authors didn't even bother to thank
> me for my efforts (in the forums) when their tables were released, but I don't
> really give a rat's ass. If I can do something to help the community, I'll do
> it. I love playing those tables. That's the only reward I need.
>
> I also followed the MODding guidelines very strictly, except in Flash Gordon's
> case (which was a Nicky table). That release was an unauthorized mod and I think
> some people got the joke and realized the irony when I put it out.
>
> I attempted to do a few VP tables by myself (for example I tried Surf Champ by
> Gottlieb) but I just realized that I'm not that good of a table designer. I
> wasn't satisfied and never finished my projects. Most of those old VP/M tables
> play surprisingly well (Tables by Cutter, Tom Scutt, Gaston, Boris, Andre
> Needham, etc.). They created amazing tables from such limited material. I
> probably *could* have rebuilt them from a scratch, but for what reason? Why
> doing the whole job all over again when other people did those things much
> better before me?
>
> Why should I do something that I'm not that good at, and what I don't
> particularly enjoy? I'm not an artist like Scapino, but I can do a lot of
> technical things to images. If I release a modded version of the old table, it's
> MY way to give back to the community.
>
> And based on my experience, doing a good graphics MOD is very demanding. And I'm
> not talking about any Nicky MODs that got released two hours after the original
> release.
>
> I don't like the attitude that some people have in these forums. 95% of the
> regular posters are great and helpful, but some unnamed people whine like old
> women. I had a disagreement with Destruk (it was actually a misunderstanding),
> but we both solved the issue like real men and buried the hatchet almost
> immediately. We ALL love pinball, and that subculture is slowly dying or at
> least getting smaller.
>
> I think it's unforgiveable if WE start whining and arguing about some totally
> insignificant details, like "should MODded tables get posted to VPM latest table
> releases or MODS and plugins"
>
> Jesus Christ. Only old WOMEN have time and energy to start fights and arguments
> about issues like that.
>
> I created a Usenet News group alt.games.mame a couple of years ago, and there
> has *never* been any negative attitude among the regular posters of the group.
> Most of those people don't even *create* anything or contribute anything to
> MAME. They're just fans.
>
> ALL MODders and table authors are creative and talented people and should get
> respect from others. I don't think many people do these things for personal
> recognition. They do things for US, for FREE. For the pinball community. And
> that's exactly how it should be.
>
> Face it, VP and VPM scene is getting smaller. Now that AJ is "off the ball", we
> don't even have a site that updates all VPM tables regularly. This all is not
> new and fancy anymore to people who hang around on the Net searching for
> "freebies". And when it comes to popularity, compared to MAME, VP/VPM is just a
> side note in everyone's papers. But who cares?
>
> WE love this forum, WE love this community and WE can live together in peace if
> this ridiculous hair-splitting crap ends right now. We vote if someone sets up a
> new voting poll for MODding guidelines. Closing threads and voting polls like
> this is unforgiveable, especially when the thread starter was one of our regular
> members who contributed a lot to the community. That's just my opinion.
>
> This is the first negative comment I've posted since I came here 12 months ago.
> I hope it was my last one as well.
>
> Kristian.
>
Many authors just release tables at the best state they can develop them and then simply don't care about what happens, other people just want to see a version of the table released and whatever happens afterwards is moot...

IMSHO all that matters is gamers enjoy the tables...

If you remember, I got slammed for saying I didn't like a certain table as well as another and you'd think I'd damned the author to hell... *roll eyes* ... Even after saying the tables was 'one of the five best' I'd seen at the time made no difference...

I don't think people can vent their opinions at the forum without fear of reprisal, but it's been that way for some time and as PacDude said until it falls it'll stay that way...

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted bySaintGeorge
Posted on10/11/02 09:20 PM



What a bunch of whiny little old ladies. If maybe you behaved like a human being and were respectful of others and their contributions you wouldn't have been kicked out in the first place. You know exactly why you were banned Nicky. And PacDude is nothing but a fancy modder.

Those who can make tables make them, those who can't mod and steal. I'm looking at you Nicky and PacDude.


SubjectCheck out the new nonsense they posted new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/11/02 10:19 PM



Due to a turn of events at VPForums, I've decided to give the forums another chance and hence I'll delete my rants here for now.



SubjectWhy Thank You new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/11/02 10:44 PM



> And PacDude is nothing but a fancy modder.

What the heck is a fancy modder? I've invented half "fancy" techniques that make tables look good and people now use those techniques every day and I never hear so much as a thank-you for them. Even the original shiny ball was my release (and still found in over half the tables out there). And what I've done with tables like TAF/TZ is far more difficult than creating a brand new spanking VP table that doesn't even play right, let alone look right. How many tables even come close to TAF and TZ? My "mods" are not decal covers or background pictures. I wrote tons of code for some of these tables as well.

How good am I? Well, I fixed EVERY single issue with Rocky & Bullwinkle (including creating the log animation) in less than a week that DesAngel was unable to do on his own in the 6 months since his prior release of it. I turned Diner from a half-baked table at an odd looking angle and numerous inaccuracies to one of the better Vpinmame tables out there in less than 2 weeks. I upgraded FunHouse from the last official version to one that looked 5x better in one day. I fixed Kid_C's "unsolvable" problem with the Time Expander in Dr. Who in less than an hour. Fancy modder? Why thank you very much.

TAF and TZ are the two best '90s tables out there, bar none and neither would be there without me. So before you stick your foot in your mouth again, try thinking first.

> Those who can make tables make them, those who can't mod and steal. I'm looking
> at you Nicky and PacDude.

The only difference between a team and a modder is the modder works alone. I took over TAF when it was in pretty poor shape and invented half the techniques used out there to get it to be the best table of the time, including some ones that are no longer needed due to VP upgrades.

Partial list of things I invented, co-invented in VP or did first:
====================================================
-Lens effects on lights
-Lighted playfield effects around pop bumpers when they light
-Transparent pop bumpers that have bulbs that light up
-Light projections from flashers on walls
-The magnetic powerfield in TZ using real magnets
-Vertical ramp ball movement animation (TZ)
-The 3D chair in TAF that is texture-mapped and yet fully 3D and angle independent
-2-wire/3-wire combo ramp in TAF before VP supported 2-wire ramps
-SEVEN Ball ball-tracking (different image for each ball) in TZ for "Gumball Mode)
-Ramp decals before there was any support for ramp mapping (TAF RAMPS)
-The Shiny Ball

And what have you done for the VP community Saint George? I could have started tables from scratch, but how much longer would it have taken to do by myself and therefore how fewer table releases would I have had just so I could please flamers like yourself by taking all the credit (which I don't even care about)?






SubjectRe: I said Goodbye to VPForums new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/11/02 10:55 PM



> Those who can make tables make them, those who can't mod and steal. I'm looking
> at you Nicky and PacDude.

Oh and I think Nicky made a complete original table (The Great Rock&Roll Swindle) by himself and made the table half of Flash Gordon. Amazing how he did that since he "can't" eh? What a load of nonsense.






SubjectRe: Check out the new nonsense they posted Reply to this message
Posted bycapslock
Posted on10/12/02 00:50 AM




> Kid_C says:
>
> ===
> Another problem is people that mod a table without permission, lock it and name
> like it was an official update. It would be a nice world to live in where
> everyone was considerate of each other but I don't live in that world.
> ===
>
> I've *NEVER* *EVER* seen that happen once and I usually download all the new
> Vpinmame table releases

Actually, it happened to Kid_C not too long ago - someone modded Indiana Jones Revisited, locked the table, and then uploaded it to IRPinball as an official update (1.1). The whole incident pissed off Kid_C enough for him to write this in the revision history notes when he released 1.15:

"FUCK ALL MODDERS!!! Only good modder is a dead modder. Those who can create do, those who can't mod."

It's unfortunate what happened with Indiana Jones Revisited, but at the same time, I really don't think it helps the situation when you take it out on everyone who mods either.






SubjectWhy do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byAJR
Posted on10/12/02 01:19 AM



What is the problem PacDude? Do you constantly thive on finding err in everyone ELSE's ways, but not your own. Who made you God and Mr. Perfect? You act as if you do no wrong! You act as though if it wasn't for you, no one could survive around here because you bring out the faults of everyone... but we should duck if we point out your faults!!! This is the only problem I have with you! I love your work, as I did Nicky's. But your attitude needs to change to a more positive one... rather than bring everyone down with your gripes about VPForums, Visual Pinball, VPM Emulation, etc! You can't blame it all on the Moderators! Yes they lose their poise now and then, but they do their best, but can't do everything that will please everyone! Hey, we can remove all the rules and the bans and open everything back up and see how well everything goes with no Moderators! Is this what you want so there's nothing to complain about at VPForums and our 'Iron Fist Rules'! You would have left the scene a long time ago if we had no moderation at VPForums becuase there would have been many people modding TZ and TAF that would have pissed you off!

You're always wanting to change the rules. Everything is not about the rules... it's about pinball. It's about the love of the game... not who did what to who and what table is being modded today. Stop focusing on the little stuff and start looking to the future of getting as many pinball tables emulated as possible. No table will never be complete... NEVER! Look at the last 8-10 months you've been updating Addam's Family. Is it done? Complete? Perfect? No! Will it ever be? No! Because everyone is different and feels the flipper setting should be set at 0.007 instead of 0.008!

Stop the gripes and continue your tables! We keep beating a dead horse here and losing focus of pinball! I'm not going to bow down and kiss your ass because you feel you're not appreciated! I've got enough stuff to do! I have seen hundreds of comments of 'Unbelievable work PacDude' and 'WOW you've outdone yourself again'!




SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on10/12/02 02:58 AM



> You can't blame it all on the Moderators!
> Yes they lose their poise now and then, but they do their best, but can't do
> everything that will please everyone! Hey, we can remove all the rules and the
> bans and open everything back up and see how well everything goes with no
> Moderators!

Yes, let's do that. What's the WORST thing that could happen? Some people would argue occasionally in the Debate Central folder (in which, ironically, no debate is currently allowed). Oh no! Disaster! End of the world! People are arguing a bit in a forum set aside for arguing! Panic!

You know as well as we do there's no need for moderation of VP Forums at all, except in the event of a DOS attack or similar. The "moderators" of VP Forums have achieved NOTHING other than to tear the community apart with their absurd petty rule-making and powermongering. The same thing happened over at Fruit Forums, almost causing the whole fruit-machine-emulation scene to collapse under the weight of acrimony, until finally everyone decided to make the forums unmoderated. They community has conspicuously failed to implode since then, because rather than festering away destructively, any differences are argued about and then forgotten. There are still some locked releases - more than there are in VP - and a lot of people still hate the idea, but the issue doesn't cause the vicious crap it does with VP, because no-one's views are suppressed and people who disagree with the "party line" are still allowed and able to contribute positive things to the community. People argue it out occasionally, it burns itself out naturally, and everyone agrees to disagree and gets on with making fruit machines.

Sadly, I suspect the egos of the VPF mods are too out-of-control to ever allow this to happen. Come to Retrogames forums, folks.

> Everything is not about the rules...
> it's about pinball.

The irony of this in the context of what's happened with Getaway is pretty hilarious. A perfectly legitimate mod, swamped in petty rule-carping by mods and repeatedly deleted from IRPinball for no reason.

> Stop the gripes and continue your tables!

Excellent point! I'm sure THAT will persuade him!

NS.


SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/12/02 06:59 AM



> What is the problem PacDude? Do you constantly thive on finding err in everyone
> ELSE's ways, but not your own.

The problem is not a difference of opinion. People could gripe and debate all they want. Fine. My problem is when new authors are attacked without provocation like in the High Speed 2 thread. That sort of thing discourages new people from even attempting to contribute to the community.

The problem is also when threads are edited, deleted or locked without any good reason. They simply don't want anyone to discuss certain topics, not even in the DEBATE forum and not even when the rules say the issue is OPEN to discussion. That's just plain wrong.

So what is the problem with wanting to correct and/or stop such incidents from happening in the future? Again, the problem is that I can't even talk about it without getting locked, deleted or even banned from posting.

The difference between my faults and their faults is that I get banned from posting and they don't. It's the double standard that is really irksome.

I seriously doubt the forums need much moderation at all 99% of the time. All these incidents have been unnecessary.

Now tell me something. Why is it that *I* am the one "stirring up trouble?" Don't you think maybe it's the fact they have been stirring up so much trouble that ticked me off in the first place? I'm sick of watching new users get harassed or even banned because the moderators have to attack them. Geeze. Give people some leeway and maybe we'd get some new users. Not everyone thinks the same and not everyone is going to agree all the time. It's a fact of life. And it's what makes discussion interesting. But on VPForums lately, it's starting to feel like the Borg.


> love your work, as I did Nicky's. But your attitude needs to change to a more
> positive one... rather than bring everyone down with your gripes about VPForums,
> Visual Pinball, VPM Emulation, etc! You can't blame it all on the Moderators!

Who should I blame it on? I couldn't care less if someone asks one too many times when VP7 will be available or posts a quesiton in the wrong forum or posts the same topic twice. It's the way some of these people are treated (downright nasty sometimes) that irks me. I've been a part of VPForums since its inception. Do you think I left in protest because things have been like this all along??? No, things have been going down hill.

> everything that will please everyone! Hey, we can remove all the rules and the
> bans and open everything back up and see how well everything goes with no
> Moderators! Is this what you want so there's nothing

I never suggested ANY such thing. The fact that people continually choose to put words in my mouth doesn't help things any. I mean look at my rule change suggestions. They are simply red tape removal suggestions to make things run smoother! They were designed to EASE tensions, not make them worse. So what happens? They lock the thread almost as soon as I post it without any just cause. That's the one that pushed me over the edge right there. When you can't even debate something in the debate forum (and I was NOT being inflammatory; I posted suggestions to HELP make things better for BOTH sides), something is wrong.

> VPForums and our 'Iron Fist Rules'! You would have left the scene a long time
> ago if we had no moderation at VPForums becuase there would have been many
> people modding TZ and TAF that would have pissed you off!

See that's TOTAL NONSENSE. I said a LONG TIME AGO that both TAF and TZ are free and open to mod. I just ask that they be marked/named differently. That's it. Nicky modded both at one time and I didn't care much for either one. Did I jump down his throat? Nope....


> You're always wanting to change the rules. Everything is not about the rules...

Well, that's where your're wrong. It's the rules that are allowing the moderators to jump down people's throats at the slightest provocation. I've brought up the lock issue once and the mod rules once. Every other time a fight breaks out over it, someone else has started it, believe it or not. Yes, I REPLY to those threads to defend my view, but I'm not the instigator. People think I cause trouble because I speak out loudly and often about things I'm passionate about.

> it's about pinball. It's about the love of the game... not who did what to who

So why are some people so upset about modding and locks (or lack thereof) in general? I never suggested that locks be included in VP. I never suggested that we needed ANY special modding rules to begin with. It was OTHER PEOPLE that INSISTED they be able to "protect their work." Protect it from whom? How many times have we seen unauthorized mods posted there over the past year and a half? I'm sure I could count on one hand and I don't think anyone ever thought those tables were by that person. We all know who the real authors and what work they did. Many of us document it quite thoroughly. So how can I be an instigator of the problem when I'm NOT the one who created it in the first place?????



> and what table is being modded today. Stop focusing on the little stuff and
> start looking to the future of getting as many pinball tables emulated as
> possible. No table will never be complete... NEVER!

And what have I been doing the past 16 months? Twiddling my thumbs??? Geeze and I have a real job too.


>Look at the last 8-10
> months you've been updating Addam's Family. Is it done? Complete? Perfect? No!
> Will it ever be? No! Because everyone is different and feels the flipper
> setting should be set at 0.007 instead of 0.008!

Hey, they can adjust their own flipper settings. Twilight Zone is almost perfect now in my current WIP and certainly I'm quite pleased with it. I never force anyone to download the latest version.


> Stop the gripes and continue your tables! We keep

Who says I've stopped? I just made a near perfect looking Time Expander animation for Dr. Who and also cleaned the playfield and added a slick cabinet. I doubt anyone will ever see it, though as Kid_C seems a bit pi$$ed with modders lately and I don't intend to release it behind his back (I never have). I may post a picture of it at VPForums (only place I can post pictures currently) to see if he wants it or not, but I wouldn't count on it.

> I have seen
> hundreds of comments of 'Unbelievable work PacDude' and 'WOW you've outdone
> yourself again'!
>

Hey, I never asked anyone to give me any praise at all for my work. I like to see that people enjoy it, but I actually PREFER to see useful FEEDBACK instead and that is usually in short supply.





SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on10/12/02 07:22 AM



> I may
> post a picture of it at VPForums (only place I can post pictures currently)

You can post pictures here as long as you upload them somewhere. Just use the (image) and (/image) markups, only with square brackets, around a url. Example:






SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on10/12/02 08:00 AM



> You can post pictures here as long as you upload them somewhere. Just use the
> (image) and (/image) markups, only with square brackets, around a url. Example:

Well, I'd need somewhere to be able to upload the pictures to do that.






SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on10/12/02 08:14 AM



> Well, I'd need somewhere to be able to upload the pictures to do that.

Surely you have enough webspace to host a few little 100K pictures? Any free account would do for that.




SubjectRe: Why do you stir up so much trouble??? new Reply to this message
Posted bycapslock
Posted on10/12/02 08:15 AM



> > You can post pictures here as long as you upload them somewhere. Just use the
> > (image) and (/image) markups, only with square brackets, around a url.
> Example:
>
> Well, I'd need somewhere to be able to upload the pictures to do that.
>

Maybe Nicky could help you out?





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