> on this matter because iīm in this community for the fun of pinball and not
> for personal ego-trips.
Well, that makes two of us. I'm going to give you a detailed reply, Lio because you deserve one.
> Donīt get me wrong PacDude - you certainly did a lot of good work and i really
Isn't that what really matters? The work?
> interest in doing that as much as iīm loosing interest in the whole community.
I'm losing interest in the community too. It used to be about recreating pinball tables and having a good time. Now it seems like some people just want to argue with me or attack my work. I'm starting to think these people are simply jealous, even though I have no interest in such things.
> While you keep saying that your sole intention always was to improve things and
> bring tables as close to the real thing as possible, iīve still got the feeling
> that you just wanted to slap your name on more and more releases lately.
Why do you get that feeling, exactly? People asked me to work on more than just TAF and TZ and now that I've gotten those two pretty close to where I want them, I've started to go back and look at other existing tables I like and see what I can do with them to make them more accurate. I put my name in the credits for the work I did, nothing more (unlike some people that slap their name right on the apron of the table as if they created the original machine). And in ALL those cases, I've had permission to release those updates and I don't recall a single author ever complaining to me that I made their table worse. My goal is simply to have ALL my favorite pinball tables brought up to the TZ level of accuracy. After all, I'm a big pinball FAN too, not just a hobbist that likes to build tables. I want to see all tables look like ProPinball (if possible), which is the simulated quality I aspire to.
Think about it. If I were just in it for the glory, why would I start with existing tables (which leaves credit for the previous authors)? I would do what Kid does, start over from scratch and thus take ALL the credit. Do you seriously think gaging by the quality of my work that I could NOT start from scratch if that was what I wanted to do? I think in some respects it's more disrespectful to start over to just "one-up" existing tables. That then probably makes their tables useless to most people and all their work is forgotten. I don't care how much work I do on TAF and how much better it is, I still give Boris credit for his work a year and a half ago. He deserves it.
> Contributing to a table is one thing (and i have to admit that you have always
> given credit where due in your rev-histories when it came to people contributing
Of course I have. I maintain meticulous rev-history files for just that purpose (and to document what was done along the way so people can gage whether it's worth their time to download).
> to your projects) but releasing tables someone else initially recreated under
> your "label" is yet another.
And where did I EVER do that? Are you referring to Dr. Who? Let's get this straight right now before there is any more confusion about it. First of all, "my" version of Dr. Who is almost entirely MY WORK applied to Krellan's table and with his FULL PERMISSION ahead of time. I asked him and got his permission before I ever started applying the changes. My "label" is NOT "my" label. It's "our" label (Krelland and me). And don't think I won't mention KC's table as a point of reference. But the table in question is *NOT* KC's table. There are two images from KC's table and both are modified (the back-wall image and the playfield). The playfield is a flyer image and 90% of of it was straight from the flyer scan (if someone else found me a flyer image somewhere, it would come out the same because I still had to go in and CLEAN UP huge areas of the playfield because this was beyond Kid's skill level).
So the source of that image may be from Kid's friend who scanned a Williams flyer, but it's NOT the same image as found in his table (mine is fully cleaned up). He does NOT own nor did he CREATE the flyer image that came from. Short of having to spend a few hours cleaning up an image again, there is NO reason I couldn't apply a separate flyer scan to Krellan's table (i.e. find me one). This is not a property issue (it's not KC's property period; Williams is the copyright holder of that flyer) and it's not a table element. The only thing from KC's table is the Time Expander Code which was co-written by both of us (and neccessary to move my version of the TE over to Krellan's table). I could redress the lines so they're labeled differently, but the basic "element.IsDropped" type lines for instance, still need to be there regardless. Rewriting them won't change the basic structure. However, as nice as the TE was that I created for KC's table, it wasn't perfect. It still had some problems and it wasn't 100% functional (the balls wouldn't eject in test mode for instance from the other two levels as they were just window-dressing). The current Time Expander in Krellan's updated table is 100% functional. It works EXACTLY like the real thing in every test mode, etc. The balls can eject at any level, etc. All lights on it work at all levels, etc. and it LOOKS very close to the real one at all levels (and the balls move with it at all levels, etc.)
I'm not saying KC doesn't deserve credit for his table. It was better in most respects, IMO than Krellan's table, but far from perfect, just the same. Dr. Who isn't my favorite table to begin with, but the Time Expander presented an interesting challenge to me that I couldn't resist. Initially, that's all I wanted to add to it, but as I went along I found all kinds of areas I could make more accurate. I sent these to KC, but even so he had the stated attitude that he didn't care about accuracy, only playability. Well I knew righ then I had a problem with just sending him changes that he may or may not use. We bumped heads on other issues around that time as well and it was clear we just weren't getting along. Plus he originally told me he'd have an update (from his end) to look at the following week, but it's been two months and I've never seen any update. Krellan expressed interest to me in an updated Dr. Who table (period, he didn't mind if it was his table or KC's), so I asked him if I could update his version of the table. He said yes, so here we are.
KC is free to relese his own table any way he wants. I gave him the Time Expander and a load of other improvements and if he wants to use them, fine; if not, fine. I'm not trying to stop him from working on *his* table. So why is he trying to stop me from working on Krellan's table??? That is the big question. I personally think the answer is jealousy. He made Dr. Who Revisited for what purpose? Just for the heck of it or do you think maybe he wanted to show off a bit by making Krellan's version look bad? He's told me before he started over with tables like STTNG because he had new images and that he though the existing table was too inaccurate to apply them to (plus he hates sharing credit, which is the real reason he hates mods and so-called "modders" whom he has no respect for regardless of their permission or their ability).
> And while you are right that your rev-histories can hardly be taken as a lack of
> respect torwards other community members your actions can. I do believe that you
> had an "ok" for all your "mods" but why not just contribute and show some extra
> respect by letting the original author make the "official" release?
Again, you seem to be acting as if this version of Dr. Who is the same version I sent KC. It's not remotely the same other than sharing some of the changes *I* made to KC's table. This is Krellan's table and if you look at the table and compare it to KC's you'll plainly see it is NOT the same. It's Krellan's table. It's mostly his code (save the Time Expander code) and I'm making that quite clear again. KC can do whatever he wants with his version of Dr. Who. I've NEVER tried to force him to release his table or even demanded he get an update to me to look at. When it was clear that our cooperative effort wasn't really going to go forward any further and I found that I still had things I wanted to work on, I decided to ask Krellan if he wanted a truly accurate version of Dr. Who made from his table. And no one will force someone to download this version instead of KC's version (present or future).
> What you did lately was more like "overtaking" than contributing - at least i
> got that feeling.
Well that's not correct. I did "take over" the update to Krellan's table (I'm the one doing all the work on it), but I offered to let Krellan contribute (he seemed interested in making the Dalek an EMReel), but so far I've done all the work. And as always, I do not LOCK or otherwise limit the use of any table I work on. If Krellen wants to do more work, fine. If other people want to release MODs of it, it's OK with me.
>I can see why Kid C. was
> p*ssed: at first you contributed, then you started posting pics of your progress
> on "his" table (yeah, sure the copyright thing...let
Are you referring to the old WIP pictures I posted a couple of months ago for his table? Well first off, I didn't know it was a crime to share pictures of my improvements (and I often do this because people come forward with more sources, etc. Kristian sent me a whole bunch of Dr. Who photos after he saw that, for instance, which I've used in the update of Krellan's table). KC did ask me after I posted that to please not post WIP treads in the future, but the reasons he gave were along the lines of he didn't want people pestering him about where they could find a table he didn't even yet have in his possesion. I've never had such problems, but OK.... I don't see why someone would get pissed, though. They're just WIP pictures, not a final result.