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SubjectBanned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/27/02 01:09 AM



Well, it seems I've been banned from posting once again from VPForums. I received no explanation why (which breaks their own moderation rules). I'm guessing it has something to do with my Dr. Who WIP (which is an authorized update of Krellan's Dr. Who table) thread where Kid Charlemagne barged in and threw a hissy fit, accusing me of copying his ramps (without proof, based on a picture) and claiming he "owned" images that are copyrighted to Williams, both of which are paranoid, obsessive behavior. Even so, I didn't flame him, but I did call him on such nonsense.

In return, I now find the thread deleted without mention and my posting status locked. This is some thanks for working by butt off for a year and a half for the VP community. People begged me to work on more tables than just Addams Family and Twilight Zone. And so I have (over a half dozen now). In all that time, I have never released a table without permission.

In return, I get my posting privleges revoked with no explanation and having broken no rules. How much do you want to bet that Kid Charlemagne still has his posting prileges even though he is the one that attacked my WIP thread (given his moderator status)? Need I even mention that I gave him a vastly improved version of his own Dr. Who table free of charge? I've never released that table (or any Dr. Who table as of this writing).

I suggest anyone who is as tired of this crap as I am let the staff at VPForums know what you think about such actions.



Looking once again, I see that Kinsey has posted the following as an explanation as to why "deleted threads" were deleted:

"Messages to Staff -> Program -> Reason: Intent was obvious to continue the mod/anti-mod war. There are existing threads to discuss the issue."

That is blatent NONSENSE. I had FULL PERMISSION to UPDATE Krellan's Dr. Who table and I never once said ANYTHING about modding any table in that thread. NOT ONE THING.

This was about Kid Charlemagne accusing me of breaking rules I did not break. There is no rule against using photos that are copyrighted to Williams (he did not own them). And my Dr. Who table is not using his ramps, contrary to his claim. Even so, I've since removed one of the 3 pictures in question. Another one is modified and the playfield is something we BOTH worked on and so regardless, he can't claim it's soley his "work" even (let alone the fact it's from a copyrighted flyer from Williams to begin with).


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byqueldor
Posted on11/27/02 01:44 AM



This is bad. If this is going on, there will be no VP community anymore in the near future. That would be a shame, coz there are allready to many great modders/table creators who left the place. :-((


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byGottliebVPGD
Posted on11/27/02 02:20 AM



The biggest problem with you is its always "me, me, me". "I give and I give and nobody respects me." No, its because anytime you offer to help someone there's strings attached. Anything you get involved in instantly becomes your project. You start pressuring people to make changes they don't want to make. And you can't just discuss your differences in private messages, you have to air your dirty laundry in the public forum. This can only be because you want to stir up trouble. And you do. Every post you generate is an hour long diatribe on how much you give to the community and how much the community should respect all the work you've done. Well, with all the back patting and bragging and negative criticism of anything anyone else does, we're not buying it anymore. It's all B.S. Any amount of good a person does has to be weighed against all the trouble they cause, and the balance is heavily tilted against you my friend.

The kind of people that support people like you and Nicky are only interested in who has the most complete set of ROM files, who has the most warez, they don't care one bit about the people who put in all the hard work. Its all gimme gimme gimme. They don't care if its you pumping out the crap or somebody else. If people's toes get stepped on so be it. As long as they get their fix. Well, people like that, and YOU, can go start your own forum for the warez kiddies. Go pump out your table a week. Mod other people's work without their approval. We don't need you. There are plenty of talented people who show respect for other's. They'll gladly take your place.

And as I said in the vpforum post, I look forward to your parsing of each and every sylable I say, how you twist every meaning around, and try to make it look like you're the victim and everyone that has a different point of view is just mean spirited and against you for no reason. Well, it doesn't fly. The vast majority (your pets excluded) feel the same way I do. They just don't think you're worth the effort to say anything about it in the forums. But believe me in private the conversations are heavily against you.

So go on patting yourself on the back and wear your "I am a Victim" badge with pride. The rest of us will move on without you. Farewell.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/27/02 02:59 AM



> nobody respects me." No, its because anytime you offer to help someone there's
> strings attached. Anything you get involved in instantly becomes your project.
> You start pressuring people to make changes they don't want to make. And you

That's total bologna. I've never pressured anyone to make any changes. I do my work and I ask approval to either post a mod or an official update. Kid's case was a matter of submitting the work to him and that's it. After two months of waiting for a progress update and having a lot more improvement ideas, I simply decided to ask Krellan if I could update his table since he expressed interest in this before. He agreed and I moved my work to his table. That is the entire story in a bottle right there. I've never pressured anyone to release anything. Whether Kid ever releases his Dr. Who with anything I sent to him is his business.

> can't just discuss your differences in private messages, you have to air your
> dirty laundry in the public forum. This can only be

Are we forgetting whom attacked whom here? I posted a WIP update to Krellan's Dr. Who table. It was Kid Charlemagne who attacked my thread, not the other way around. He was the one airing dirty laundry and it's not the first time he's done it either. He did the same thing to a Rocky & Bullwinkle release thread, questioning my authority to release it, even though it was previously established with a previous release. Should I let other people's derrogatory comments go unchecked in public? Unlike Kid, I don't have moderator authority, so I can't just delete BS posts that make false accusations.

>because you want to stir up
> trouble. And you do. Every post you generate is an
hour long diatribe on how
> much you give to the community and how much the

Every post eh? The mere fact you lie about such a thing only shows your own credibility. Zero.

> B.S. Any amount of good a person does has to be weighed against all the trouble
> they cause, and the balance is heavily tilted against you my friend.

First of all, I'm not your friend. Second of all, any trouble that is stirred up is a result of people attacking my ideas, opinions and more to the point, my person. The fact that some people are unable to discuss issues with civility, but instead resort to flaming me only demonstrates that in fact it is not me who stirs up trouble. Some people are unable to accept that any idea or opinion that differs from their own can also be valid. I do not resort to personal flames. Can you say the same Gottlieb? I think not.

> The kind of people that support people like you and Nicky are only interested in
> who has the most complete set of ROM files, who has the most warez, they don't
> care one bit about the people who put in all the hard work. Its all gimme gimme


Geeze. I bet people like Kristian, Cyberdman, Neurokinetik, wpcmame, fuseball, and countless others are all thrilled to hear you classify them as only being interested in warez and contributing nothing. Give me a break with your pedantic BS.

> Go pump out your table a week. Mod other people's work without their approval. We

So now you are encouraging me to mod other people's work without their approval? That's not something I do. I find it strange you're encouraging me to go do it now.

> don't need you. There are plenty of talented people who show respect for
> other's. They'll gladly take your place.

I've always given credit for anyone that contributes to any table I've been given charge of. The idea that I don't respect other people's work is ludicrous. Very few maintain such stringent revision histories as myself. I've been accused of writing books in terms of revision histories before I'm so meticulate about it. I'd hardly call that lacking respect.

> And as I said in the vpforum post, I look forward to your parsing of each and
> every sylable I say, how you twist every meaning around, and try to make it look
> like you're the victim and everyone that has a different point of view is just

I don't twist anything. Anyone can see that. Claiming it not to be so won't make it true.

> mean spirited and against you for no reason. Well, it doesn't fly. The vast
> majority (your pets excluded) feel the same way I do.

The vast majority? Right. That's why I always get so much positive feedback to all my releases. But since you already included plenty of well known and well respected authors in the list of my "pets," well you can't expect a claim like "vast majority" to have much meaning when you remove everyone that likes my work from the count.

They just don't think
> you're worth the effort to say anything about it in the forums. But believe me
> in private the conversations are heavily against you.

Why should I believe you? You already lied once already. These people that supposedly don't think it's worth the effort to reply in public do think it's worth the effort to talk behind my back? They must have some strange idea of what constitutes "effort."

> So go on patting yourself on the back and wear your "I am a Victim" badge with
> pride. The rest of us will move on without you. Farewell.

Farewell? If only that were true.






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/27/02 05:30 AM



Well Pacdude I love your work man BUT you've got a BIG mouth that just won't quit boy.
Arbitrator of your own doom.

Welcome one and all to Pacdude's crying forum.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/27/02 11:53 PM



> Well Pacdude I love your work man BUT you've got a BIG mouth that just won't
> quit boy.
> Arbitrator of your own doom.
>
> Welcome one and all to Pacdude's crying forum.
>

That's bologna. That Dr. Who thread still exists (it's in the archive forum) and it's plain to see that there is NO talk on there about banning anyone. In fact, it says they *have* to give a warning first. I received NO WARNING and NO EXPLANATION. They broke their own rules.

Even if you believe BJ's ridiculous argument about not using "materials" from other tables (even if when the other author doesn't own them, but are in fact property of Williams), the FACT remains that I have NOT RELEASED any Dr. Who table and therefore I STILL have broken no rules on there. They are total hypocrites. They don't even follow their own moderating rules.

As for loving my work, well let's just see how much work I do for the community when I have to put up with BS like that. I can just as easily keep my table work to myself. It would seem that certain individuals over there would actually prefer I keep it to myself. They're admitted "thieves" according to the debate forum thread on moderation and therefore I should't be surprised that they have no honor.






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byGottliebVPGD
Posted on11/28/02 01:16 AM



Blah, blah, blah. More empty words from the King of Crybabies. Its not what you say that matters. Nobody pays attention to what you say. Its how you say it and your lack of concern about anyone but yourself that makes you the pariah that you are. There is no middle ground. People either like you for what you do, or hate you. Those that like you are only interested in getting the next table fix. Those that do all the work to create the tables you like to mod and fiddle with hate you. You can throw the word "lie" around all you want. I have nothing to gain or lose by saying what I do. What advantage would I gain from making something up? I know nothing about you except what I have seen and heard from other's, and if you're right and we're wrong then there are a huge number of liars around here. I would tend to believe them before you simply because their reputations are not in question. They are some of the best people in the community. The problem my friend, and I use that word loosely, lies in yourself. Blah blah blah, parse this up and serve it with a slice of bread.




SubjectRe: Banned Again Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/28/02 05:06 AM



> > Well Pacdude I love your work man BUT you've got a BIG mouth that just won't
> > quit boy.
> > Arbitrator of your own doom.
> >
> > Welcome one and all to Pacdude's crying forum.
> >
>
> That's bologna. That Dr. Who thread still exists (it's in the archive forum)
> and it's plain to see that there is NO talk on there about banning anyone. In
> fact, it says they *have* to give a warning first. I received NO WARNING and NO
> EXPLANATION. They broke their own rules.
>
> Even if you believe BJ's ridiculous argument about not using "materials" from
> other tables (even if when the other author doesn't own them, but are in fact
> property of Williams), the FACT remains that I have NOT RELEASED any Dr. Who
> table and therefore I STILL have broken no rules on there. They are total
> hypocrites. They don't even follow their own moderating rules.
>
> As for loving my work, well let's just see how much work I do for the community
> when I have to put up with BS like that. I can just as easily keep my table
> work to myself. It would seem that certain individuals over there would
> actually prefer I keep it to myself. They're admitted "thieves" according to
> the debate forum thread on moderation and therefore I should't be surprised that
> they have no honor.
>

Being right or wrong isn't the issue.
Having enough brains to know when to shut up IS!!!
You are sadly lacking in this department as I said you have a big mouth.
Cry on PD





SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted by(bd)lio
Posted on11/28/02 10:08 AM



This is going to be the first and probably last time iīll state _my_ opinion
on this matter because iīm in this community for the fun of pinball and not
for personal ego-trips.
Donīt get me wrong PacDude - you certainly did a lot of good work and i really
like what you did with TAF and TZ. At first i was one of those that commented
on each and every of your releases and if it was only to say "thanks" - iīve lost
interest in doing that as much as iīm loosing interest in the whole community.
While you keep saying that your sole intention always was to improve things and
bring tables as close to the real thing as possible, iīve still got the feeling
that you just wanted to slap your name on more and more releases lately.
Contributing to a table is one thing (and i have to admit that you have always
given credit where due in your rev-histories when it came to people contributing
to your projects) but releasing tables someone else initially recreated under
your "label" is yet another.
And while you are right that your rev-histories can hardly be taken as a lack of
respect torwards other community members your actions can. I do believe that you
had an "ok" for all your "mods" but why not just contribute and show some extra
respect by letting the original author make the "official" release?
What you did lately was more like "overtaking" than contributing - at least i got
that feeling.

In the case of Dr.Who...well, youīre absolutely right that Kid C. shouldnīt have
"invaded" you wip thread. This fight has really grown old and obviously neither you
nor Kid C. is willing to take a step back and calm down. I can see why Kid C. was
p*ssed: at first you contributed, then you started posting pics of your progress
on "his" table (yeah, sure the copyright thing...let me pick on that one later)
and no matter what you think or say this is like pushing, like putting pressure on
the original author and finally, as you noticed that Kid C. wasnīt about to release it
right away and that he even went as far as not to use and gratefully accept everything
you changed, you jumped on the other train by working on Krellanīs version of Dr. Who.

Somewhat reminds me of this:
A child, his mother and grandmother are walking through town doing some shopping.
They enter a toy shop. Of course the child will see this super-duper toy that he canīt
continue to live without. The child asks his mother to buy this thing for him but his mother
says "no" - so what does the child do? he starts crying and walks over to grandma, rants
about how bad his mother is and that he never gets what he wants and in the next second
asks his grandmother to buy this toy for him because his mother didnīt...go figure.

The copyright thing...of course none of the vpm table authors has the copyright on the images
but thatīs not the point - i would be upset as well if someone shamelessly used the
image i worked on and cleaned up...just because i had to start from scratch back then,
so why canīt you? This would be different if Kid C. had no objections to "his" pic beeing
used - but since heīd rather not see it used anywhere else why canīt you respect his wish,
copyrighted ot not?
infact why not create an all new Dr.Who table from scratch all by yourself?

Thereīs more to it than just the latest affairs - i could talk about your ranting about
vp not beeing open source but iīll save my breath.
We will see what happens to vp within the next 4 weeks anyway...maybe no more discussions
are needed because weīve p*ssed off the one remaining vp-dev enough to quit.

Reading through what i just wrote iīm not really sure if i should post this - itīs not 100% fair.
Iīve taken my time to write this and in the end it reflects what i wanted to say... itīs just
that english is not my native language and that some things may not really come off as i wanted them to.
Donīt take it as flames - nor take it as a sympathy for Kid C. (his actions are no better or worse).
Donīt take it as "sticking the knife in your back" - iīve got no personal problem with you (how could
i - i donīt know you personally).
I just wanted to express my opinion and you do not have to justify your actions more than anyone else.
cheers,
lio

your mother ate my dog :D
http://www.vp-lio.de.vu


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bypinballmaniac
Posted on11/28/02 09:40 PM



This Gottlieb guy is a total joke and probably just another jealous social reject. Compared to the stuff PacDude has put out he has never released anything worthwile. Ah, I forgot "Ship Ohoy" from the year 1821 a.d. Thanks for sharing your work with all 7 people who downloaded it.

And stop giving IRPinball such a bad name, mr. JAY PHILLIPS.

And PS: Your posts are further proof that man really comes from apes.

-Steve


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bypinballmaniac
Posted on11/28/02 09:55 PM



> Being right or wrong isn't the issue.
> Having enough brains to know when to shut up IS!!!
> You are sadly lacking in this department as I said you
> have a big mouth.
> Cry on PD

Wow, mr Jay Phillips can use MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS and DIFFERENT ALIASES to post his flame crap from. What a clever guy!


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/28/02 11:55 PM



> Blah, blah, blah. More empty words from the King of Crybabies. Its not what you

It's hard to take any stock in what someone says when all they can do is insult and flame people. The fact that you call me names and I don't call anyone names speaks volumes in and of itself.

> Those that do all the work to create the tables you like to mod and fiddle with
> hate you. You can throw the word "lie" around all you

That's a little hard to believe considering I've never released any mods without permission. I've had permission on all my releases and no one forced those authors to give it either. I've got a perfectly nice update to Collosus's last T2 relese that I've not released because he's never given the OK. If I didn't respect author rights, etc. I would have gone ahead and released it anyway. How can these people get upset about something I've never done? The only possible answer is they're jealous of my abilities.

Flame on, Gottlieb. It seems to be all you know how to do.





SubjectLet's clear up the misconceptions (Part I) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 01:29 AM



> on this matter because iīm in this community for the fun of pinball and not
> for personal ego-trips.

Well, that makes two of us. I'm going to give you a detailed reply, Lio because you deserve one.

> Donīt get me wrong PacDude - you certainly did a lot of good work and i really

Isn't that what really matters? The work?

> interest in doing that as much as iīm loosing interest in the whole community.

I'm losing interest in the community too. It used to be about recreating pinball tables and having a good time. Now it seems like some people just want to argue with me or attack my work. I'm starting to think these people are simply jealous, even though I have no interest in such things.

> While you keep saying that your sole intention always was to improve things and
> bring tables as close to the real thing as possible, iīve still got the feeling
> that you just wanted to slap your name on more and more releases lately.

Why do you get that feeling, exactly? People asked me to work on more than just TAF and TZ and now that I've gotten those two pretty close to where I want them, I've started to go back and look at other existing tables I like and see what I can do with them to make them more accurate. I put my name in the credits for the work I did, nothing more (unlike some people that slap their name right on the apron of the table as if they created the original machine). And in ALL those cases, I've had permission to release those updates and I don't recall a single author ever complaining to me that I made their table worse. My goal is simply to have ALL my favorite pinball tables brought up to the TZ level of accuracy. After all, I'm a big pinball FAN too, not just a hobbist that likes to build tables. I want to see all tables look like ProPinball (if possible), which is the simulated quality I aspire to.


Think about it. If I were just in it for the glory, why would I start with existing tables (which leaves credit for the previous authors)? I would do what Kid does, start over from scratch and thus take ALL the credit. Do you seriously think gaging by the quality of my work that I could NOT start from scratch if that was what I wanted to do? I think in some respects it's more disrespectful to start over to just "one-up" existing tables. That then probably makes their tables useless to most people and all their work is forgotten. I don't care how much work I do on TAF and how much better it is, I still give Boris credit for his work a year and a half ago. He deserves it.

> Contributing to a table is one thing (and i have to admit that you have always
> given credit where due in your rev-histories when it came to people contributing

Of course I have. I maintain meticulous rev-history files for just that purpose (and to document what was done along the way so people can gage whether it's worth their time to download).

> to your projects) but releasing tables someone else initially recreated under
> your "label" is yet another.

And where did I EVER do that? Are you referring to Dr. Who? Let's get this straight right now before there is any more confusion about it. First of all, "my" version of Dr. Who is almost entirely MY WORK applied to Krellan's table and with his FULL PERMISSION ahead of time. I asked him and got his permission before I ever started applying the changes. My "label" is NOT "my" label. It's "our" label (Krelland and me). And don't think I won't mention KC's table as a point of reference. But the table in question is *NOT* KC's table. There are two images from KC's table and both are modified (the back-wall image and the playfield). The playfield is a flyer image and 90% of of it was straight from the flyer scan (if someone else found me a flyer image somewhere, it would come out the same because I still had to go in and CLEAN UP huge areas of the playfield because this was beyond Kid's skill level).

So the source of that image may be from Kid's friend who scanned a Williams flyer, but it's NOT the same image as found in his table (mine is fully cleaned up). He does NOT own nor did he CREATE the flyer image that came from. Short of having to spend a few hours cleaning up an image again, there is NO reason I couldn't apply a separate flyer scan to Krellan's table (i.e. find me one). This is not a property issue (it's not KC's property period; Williams is the copyright holder of that flyer) and it's not a table element. The only thing from KC's table is the Time Expander Code which was co-written by both of us (and neccessary to move my version of the TE over to Krellan's table). I could redress the lines so they're labeled differently, but the basic "element.IsDropped" type lines for instance, still need to be there regardless. Rewriting them won't change the basic structure. However, as nice as the TE was that I created for KC's table, it wasn't perfect. It still had some problems and it wasn't 100% functional (the balls wouldn't eject in test mode for instance from the other two levels as they were just window-dressing). The current Time Expander in Krellan's updated table is 100% functional. It works EXACTLY like the real thing in every test mode, etc. The balls can eject at any level, etc. All lights on it work at all levels, etc. and it LOOKS very close to the real one at all levels (and the balls move with it at all levels, etc.)

I'm not saying KC doesn't deserve credit for his table. It was better in most respects, IMO than Krellan's table, but far from perfect, just the same. Dr. Who isn't my favorite table to begin with, but the Time Expander presented an interesting challenge to me that I couldn't resist. Initially, that's all I wanted to add to it, but as I went along I found all kinds of areas I could make more accurate. I sent these to KC, but even so he had the stated attitude that he didn't care about accuracy, only playability. Well I knew righ then I had a problem with just sending him changes that he may or may not use. We bumped heads on other issues around that time as well and it was clear we just weren't getting along. Plus he originally told me he'd have an update (from his end) to look at the following week, but it's been two months and I've never seen any update. Krellan expressed interest to me in an updated Dr. Who table (period, he didn't mind if it was his table or KC's), so I asked him if I could update his version of the table. He said yes, so here we are.

KC is free to relese his own table any way he wants. I gave him the Time Expander and a load of other improvements and if he wants to use them, fine; if not, fine. I'm not trying to stop him from working on *his* table. So why is he trying to stop me from working on Krellan's table??? That is the big question. I personally think the answer is jealousy. He made Dr. Who Revisited for what purpose? Just for the heck of it or do you think maybe he wanted to show off a bit by making Krellan's version look bad? He's told me before he started over with tables like STTNG because he had new images and that he though the existing table was too inaccurate to apply them to (plus he hates sharing credit, which is the real reason he hates mods and so-called "modders" whom he has no respect for regardless of their permission or their ability).

> And while you are right that your rev-histories can hardly be taken as a lack of
> respect torwards other community members your actions can. I do believe that you
> had an "ok" for all your "mods" but why not just contribute and show some extra
> respect by letting the original author make the "official" release?

Again, you seem to be acting as if this version of Dr. Who is the same version I sent KC. It's not remotely the same other than sharing some of the changes *I* made to KC's table. This is Krellan's table and if you look at the table and compare it to KC's you'll plainly see it is NOT the same. It's Krellan's table. It's mostly his code (save the Time Expander code) and I'm making that quite clear again. KC can do whatever he wants with his version of Dr. Who. I've NEVER tried to force him to release his table or even demanded he get an update to me to look at. When it was clear that our cooperative effort wasn't really going to go forward any further and I found that I still had things I wanted to work on, I decided to ask Krellan if he wanted a truly accurate version of Dr. Who made from his table. And no one will force someone to download this version instead of KC's version (present or future).

> What you did lately was more like "overtaking" than contributing - at least i
> got that feeling.

Well that's not correct. I did "take over" the update to Krellan's table (I'm the one doing all the work on it), but I offered to let Krellan contribute (he seemed interested in making the Dalek an EMReel), but so far I've done all the work. And as always, I do not LOCK or otherwise limit the use of any table I work on. If Krellen wants to do more work, fine. If other people want to release MODs of it, it's OK with me.

>I can see why Kid C. was
> p*ssed: at first you contributed, then you started posting pics of your progress
> on "his" table (yeah, sure the copyright thing...let

Are you referring to the old WIP pictures I posted a couple of months ago for his table? Well first off, I didn't know it was a crime to share pictures of my improvements (and I often do this because people come forward with more sources, etc. Kristian sent me a whole bunch of Dr. Who photos after he saw that, for instance, which I've used in the update of Krellan's table). KC did ask me after I posted that to please not post WIP treads in the future, but the reasons he gave were along the lines of he didn't want people pestering him about where they could find a table he didn't even yet have in his possesion. I've never had such problems, but OK.... I don't see why someone would get pissed, though. They're just WIP pictures, not a final result.






SubjectLet's clear up the misconceptions (Part II) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 01:34 AM



> and no matter what you think or say this is like pushing, like putting pressure on the original author and finally, as you noticed that Kid C. wasnīt about to
> release it right away and that he even went as far as

That's incorrect in terms of a time-line. I posted those pictures as I was working on the Time Expander. I hadn't yet received any word one way or the other as to whether KC was going to use them or not. I assumed he would because it was accurate. To do this day, he's never said he wasn't going to use them, just that he wanted to copy them over to his last update and possibly shorten them so he could keep his old viewing angle (and that's where I said I took no responsiblity of whether it would come out right or not). At that point I had no interest in working on anything else. Later on when I got the pictures from Krisitan, I saw I could do a lot more than just the Time Expander. It didn't matter much to me personally whether I applied them to KC's table or Krellan's (assuming I got permission in the latter case), but I could see by that point that KC and I were not getting along (and I don't mean just in working together; I mean in other threads on the forum). So I figured it was either Krellan's table or nothing. By that time I had an interest in Dr. Who so I asked. He said yes. And now the table is completed (save turning the Dalek into an EMReel).

> you changed, you jumped on the other train by working on Krellanīs version of Dr. Who.

And what is the problem with that? I hadn't revoked my permission for KC to use my improvements. I wasn't trying to one-up his table, but rather I was leaving him to do whatever he thought best with his table while I went and did what I thought would be most accurate with Krellan's table. I've been told countless times by people like Paratech that there's nothing wrong with having two versions of the same table out there. Well in this case there were ALREADY two versions of the table out there. Is there a law that says I can't work on the other version if I get permission to do so? I didn't sign some exclusive agreement to only work on Kid's version of the table. My personal interest is purely in seeing the most accurate version possible. KC has stated time and time again he doesn't care about accuracy. That alone puts my work at odds with his.


> The copyright thing...of course none of the vpm table authors has the copyright on the images
> but thatīs not the point - i would be upset as well if someone shamelessly used the
> image i worked on and cleaned up...just because i had to start from scratch back then,
> so why canīt you? This would be different if Kid C.

But he didn't clean it up! It had flyer crap all over it! I cleaned it up! And he has my cleaned up copy of it, free of charge to include in his next update. Do you seriously think it's fair that I do the work on the playfield image and he gets to use it but I do not? No, that's not right either. His claim to "cleaning" the playfield amounts to removing the lower flippers and erasing the Dr.Who ships (they're black; the playfield is not put back in). The latter I had to recreate again to put the ships in my version using other photographs (mine uses 2 playfields for effects and other parts).

As for starting from scratch. Hey, I pratically did already (other than blacking out the ships and flippers, it was stock). I did most of the work, but he gets to use it and I don't? Again, that's not equitable at all. Even so, get me a flyer scan and I can spend hours doing it all over again just so KC won't bitch at me. My point is I don't have another flyer scan available to me at this point in time. I've already replaced the "master" image found on the back of the TE as I did have an alternate image. It still comes out looking almost exactly the same, but hey it's not the same image anymore! If I get another flyer scan, it will undoubtedly come out looking almost indentical anyway, but hey I enjoy spending hours doing work all over again for the heck of it.

> used - but since heīd rather not see it used anywhere else why canīt you respect
> his wish, copyrighted ot not?

I don't have another flyer image. And we're not talking about his wish here. He didn't express one way or the other whether he "would" let me use the picture or not. He expressed the idea that he *owns* the picture and I "sure as hell have to ask him for his permission" to use a flyer scan that isn't copyrighted to him and he doesn't own either (its a scan from a friend). If he uses my cleaned up version, he's at least as guilty for "stealing" my work as I woudl be for his whopping removal of the flippers and Who ships. Hell, give me those back and I'll remove them again. It's less work than removing everything I already removed all over again. Maybe you would like spending hours of your life doing something you already did all over again, but I'm young and I'd prefer to spend my time doing things I like to do than wasting hours repeating jobs or writing these ridiculously long diatribes in an attempt to correct faulty thinking that I've somehow stolen KC's table from him.

> infact why not create an all new Dr.Who table from scratch all by yourself?

Why throw out all of Krellan's hard work when he's perfectly happy lettin me update it? The short answer for me is that it saved me a lot of precious time to upgrade Krellan's existing table and I don't care about hogging glory. More to the point, even if I had started all over, I would still have copied my Time Expander over because that took me over 20 hours to build (and the current one on Krellan's table is a lot more since I've since fixed all remaining bugs). Again, my time is not without value to me. The Time Expander was interesting to me (getting a moving 3-level playfield to work in VP when VP isn't remotely set up to recreate such a thing). Building an entire Dr. Who table (when it's not one of my favorites in genral) from scratch was not of interest to me. I could spend the time I saved working on another table or doing something with my pitiful social life.






SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 01:45 AM



> Thereīs more to it than just the latest affairs - i could talk about your ranting about
> vp not beeing open source but iīll save my breath.

Well, look what's happening now. Black's threatening to just quit and let VP expire. Could that happen if it were open source? Could one person hold VP hostage? No way. The fact of the matter is if it were open source we'd be in lot better shape right now. We'd have a lot more people working on improving it and there'd be no danger of being stuck with VP6 forever. Even so, after I expressed my opinions at the time, I changed it (because there was no point in beating a dead horse) to encouraging an alternative project should we ever need it. It's too bad people didn't seem to think that was a good idea or we might not be worrying right now.

> We will see what happens to vp within the next 4 weeks anyway...maybe no more
> discussions are needed because weīve p*ssed off the one remaining vp-dev enough to quit.

Nobody is making Black behave like that. The little tiff with KC is being blown clear out of proportion again by other people by this banning, etc. particularly when I have yet to release any table and AJ himself said WIP pictures are allowed on VPForums regardless. No matter how you look at it, I haven't broken any forum rules because I haven't posted any Dr. Who table PERIOD thus far. And there were NO indications in that thread to make me think either KC or myself were going to be banned because of it. The thread was NOT out of control towards the end. It had plain and simple discussion in it. KC had already left the discussion as well and once again my WIP (like my T2 mod thread that was moved to the now non-existent debate area) got off-topic.

It all sounds like an excuse to me for Black to stop the current development of VP for some reason. I don't personally buy that he's just sick of it. He said before (in another post which he personally deleted along with my replies and some others) that there are companies interested in buying VP. Well, looking at it from a realistic perspective, VP in its current state is NOT going to sell very well to the Roller Coaster Tycoon sort-of buying public. They'd want a much more simplified version of VP that is easy to make basic tables with (none of this complex Visual Basic Script stuff). Thus, my prediction is that such a product would be completely incompatible with the existing VP and thus ALL tables would break and we'd be left high and dry. And no buying company would EVER want an earlier version around competing with the one they'd eventually release. Plus they would be crazy to let the product ever work with something like Vpinmame as they'd end up in court in VERY short order trying to sell a product that makes it possible to play commercial tables with an add-on emulator.

In a way, even though the thread had *NOT* gotten out of control, I'm not the LEAST bit surprised that it was deleted because the same thing happened before when I expressed concern about leaving the VP community high and dry (when he first made comments about companies being interested in buying VP). Black deleted those comments and some others as being "off topic." Well, this time I mentioned that Randy said (about a year ago or so) he would *NOT* leave the VP community in that sort of situation by making it incompatible with previous releases, etc. or leaving the scene and leaving us with an expired product that isn't going to be continued. Well, I doubt he'd want to have that sitting around if he was looking to sell VP at this time. Admittedly, this is 100% total speculation and I could be 100% wrong (but given Black's previous comments about VP possibly going commercial or at least shareware soon, I doubt it). I don't know what happened to Randy, but I sincerely hope Black isn't trying to sell VP behind his back while he's out sick or something. Maybe I am being paranoid, but even if I'm totally wrong and Black is just sick of developing VP in the current climate, etc. as he claimed in that thread until it was deleted, it's still something to be concerned about because he can and in a way IS holding VP hostage with threats like that.


> Reading through what i just wrote iīm not really sure if i should post this - itīs not 100% fair.

I think some of the things you stated and implied are just plain incorrect. Either you misunderstood the situation or you're looking at it from a very different perspective.

Let's look at it this way. If what I'm saing is total bologna and I'm really out just for glory and to steal everyone else's work (odd I give them credit for their work if I'm trying to steal it, though eh?), well then why has the debate forum been DELETED from VPForums? Someone PM'd me there and said they started a thread asking why I was banned there and it was going in my favor and I went to look for this thread and found the whole bloody forum missing! Apparently, they don't want ANY debate there or any feedback that implies there's something wrong there (someone else had an overmoderation thread going on there as well which talked about using copyrighted images, etc. which is all related to this playfield business). Yes, if I'm so wrong, why are they so scared to talk about it? Why have I *STILL* yet to receive one word from a moderator as to why I was banned from posting? There's something going on alright and it smells like a sewer to me.

I've got an official update to TOTAN sitting here as well right now (with a script rewrite by wpcmame that includes a GUI menu) among other upgrades and fixes. Again, why would I let wpcmame rewrite the script if I was looking to hog more of the credit? That makes no sense. But until AJ decides to straigten this mess out, I'm sure as heck not sending it or any other table updates to his table site.






SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted bySkalarVPMX
Posted on11/29/02 03:29 AM



PD, if you're so willing to let go of the playfield image that you got from KidC and cleaned up for use in his version of Dr. Who, why don't you? From what i understood of your posts, part of the conflict was the fact that you didn't want to not use the images that you got from KidC in the first place. Because you felt like you had a right to them.. I'm sure you know that, getting source images is part of the work when it comes to VP table development. the point alot of people are trying to make which you can't seem to let go of is the one that it's KidC who got the original source images that you cleaned up in the first place. Sure it's a williams flyer scan. but without someone scanning in the image to make it available digitally, that's all it is.. i believe KidC's point was that, he got someone to scan the flyer in for him. and it's his "scan" to do with as he wishes. and if that means not allowing someone to use it for other purposes, then he's free to do that.. What's so hard to understand about that? The fact that you keep blabbering on and on about how it's williams' copyright and whatever else is just your point of view. there are other ways to look at the situation, and yours isn't the be all and end all of the discussion.


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/29/02 05:51 AM



> > Being right or wrong isn't the issue.
> > Having enough brains to know when to shut up IS!!!
> > You are sadly lacking in this department as I said you
> > have a big mouth.
> > Cry on PD
>
> Wow, mr Jay Phillips can use MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS and DIFFERENT ALIASES to post his
> flame crap from. What a clever guy!
>

BZZZT Wrong answer.
Strike 1.
Not Jay.






SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 05:57 AM



> PD, if you're so willing to let go of the playfield image that you got from KidC
> and cleaned up for use in his version of Dr. Who, why don't you? From what i

Would you prefer I release the table with no Playfield? It's not like I have another one sitting right here to use at the moment.

One thing you seem to be forgetting here is that I already HAVE and can USE this version of Dr. Who. The ONLY question here is whether you, Krellan or anyone else will ever see it. I'm not going to buy a flyer off of E-Bay so that YOU will feel better about using a playfield photo I know I have just as much right to use as KC has (i.e. NONE from a copyright perspective). Furthermore the REASONS *KC* gave that justify his "owning" them for the purposes of VPForums is that he:

1> Acquired the image
2> He modified the image
3> He cleaned up the image

Because he did these three things, he feels he "owns" that flyer image.

Well, guess what? I acquired, modified and cleaned up that image as well. I guess I'm the new owner by his WARPED logic. Williams had better start paying me to make those flyers from now on.... Can you see how ridiculous that logic is? So he got the image from a supposed "friend." The only difference here is that KC isn't my friend then? If we both got the same image from someone's web site, it'd be OK, but because I didn't call up KC's friend first, it's now NOT OK? Right. It's OK to rip images from anonymous web sites, but it's not OK to rip them from KC's table. Yeah, I got that logic squared away. It's OK to steal images from strangers or large corporations but not from fellow VPM authors. Yup, makes sense.

What you basically seem to want is for me to buy a flyer and scan it myself, clean it up all over again and then give you the table afterwards just the same. You don't want to do any work to help make this table a reality, but you want me to do EXTRA work and maybe even lay out some cash so that YOU can feel better about using my table that you get free of charge. Well that's some pretty far out logic.


> point was that, he got someone to scan the flyer in for him. and it's his
> "scan" to do with as he wishes. and if that means not allowing someone to use it
> for other purposes, then he's free to do that..

Well then he better damn well not use the cleaned up photo I sent him because I sure as heck didn't clean it up so he could act like a total shit about its usage.

My use of that image is more than "fair" by the fact I did more work on it than him by far (using his own logic of how and why he "owns" it). There's a difference between behaving fairly and behaving like a total shit you know.

>What's so hard to understand
> about that? The fact that you keep blabbering on and

There's nothing hard about it. It's still flawed because it implies it's OK for him to rip the image from Williams while at the same time it's wrong for me to rip the image from his table, even though I modified it far more than he modified it from the original flyer. That's what you call the personal self exception rule. "YOU are not allowed to do 'this', but *I* am because I say so." That's your logic (and KC's) there in a nutshell.






SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/29/02 06:02 AM



*SIGH*
You still don't get it do you Pacdude??
You are what we call in Australia as an "easy catch".
What this means is that all someone has to do is dangle a small "bait" (pay particular attention to the word BAIT) in front of you and you come up snappin like a hungry croc.
Stop being a sukka.
This it what I mean by having BRAINS enough to know when to shut-up.
Learn this lesson and most of your forum troubles will fade away.
Your too easy man.
LOL.





SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byJanK
Posted on11/29/02 11:14 AM



All I want to say that it's a damn disgrace what there is happening at the moment. I discovered VP about 6 months ago and have been extremely happy with it. I own a real Addams Family table and have been playing the vp version of it quite a lot. Of course you can't compare real pinball and computer simulation but I'm absolutely amazed how well it (vp table) plays and looks.

The time and effort put into it must be huge indeed. At first I didn't really pay any attention who did it, or who did any other table whatsover. There are lots of incredible releases and that's the only thing that matters to me.

Lately, I've been reading the threads at the vp forums, and for a relative newcomer this whole thing looks totally absurd. The threads that were open to discuss about this whole issue were closed and deleted. I'd say that is very close to censorship. The whole thing seems to be driven by huge egos of some idiots who probably don't even enjoy playing pinball, but want to take glory and credit from everything and being "superior" to other table designers.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I think the moderators of the vp forums have never released anything worth playing. Why do they want to get involved and act like disrespectful jerks towards people like PD who has put out very advanced and complex work? I think PD is right. They're simply jealous.

Yes, and I don't know this fellow (PD) and have nothing to do with him, and he seems to have a loud mouth and be a real troublemaker. But banning him from the community... Jeez F'n Christ. That sounds like a personal vendetta to me.

If you look at the forums downloads section you see that the most downloaded tables are Addams Family, Twilight Zone, T2, Star Wars, Attack From Mars, Back To the Future and Alien Poker. All superb table conversions.

I agree there must be something going on at the vp community and I'd say the problem are the administrators. Those guys have absolutely *nothing* to do with these great VPM re-creations and still they have power to control everything.

PD, don't give up that's all I want to say to you. I don't like your posting style but I sure like your work with VP recreations. Don't let these talentless and jealous whiners make you quit.

PS: I'm not even sure if people at the forums know what happened to you. Those moderators try to kill the whole community with their censorship politics, but I'm 100% sure they can't. When people discovered what happened to you they should have courage to speak up for you, instead of kissing ass of those incompetent moderators. I know I will. I probably will get banned for posting my opinion but like I care...

Jan P. Arvedsson
Oslo, Norway




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byEmkaah
Posted on11/29/02 01:06 PM



Yeah, same surprised reaction here about the moderation on VPForums. I was new there, but thought it was fun, even made a table. But when I posted that the forum is maybe a little bit over-moderated (they have 30 or so moderators, who just ban everyone they don't like), and after the PD banning found some support, not only did they removed the thread, but the whole debate forum. Here you have a few people who really can't handle any criticism. (I was accused of name-calling for calling them childish, but calling them adults, wouldn't be the exact right word either, now would it?)

Although I thought the whole episode was rather amusing, it's a pity that the moderators on that site try to keep the monopoly of being assholes to themselves (in which they succeed marvellously).

Ah well, it's their site and they can do what they want with it.

So does anybody knows a good alternative?

-Em

PS. PacDude is cool. He's a born entertainer :)




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byKen2
Posted on11/29/02 02:12 PM



If it's true that they are really censoring and deleting the discussions I have to agree. That kind of place smells like shit to me.

It really beats me why that kind of forum has to be moderated at first place... It should be non-moderated. What do these people think they achieve when they censor their users? It doesn't matter who's right and who's wrong, but censorship will just raise more hatred and bitterness.

Those VP Forum admins are sure getting a bad reputation.
I know lots of people in the gaming world who write, and if it's true what you say you can be sure I'll let them know.

PS: rec.games.pinball is totally unmoderated and I've never seen a flame war there, despite being a regular visitor for 5 years.

Ken
rec.games.pinball
rec.games.video.arcade.collecting




SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part I) new Reply to this message
Posted byKen2
Posted on11/29/02 02:25 PM



Sorry, this is too hard for me to understand. Has this fellow (Pac Dude) stolen some work from another author and thus got banned? What "rules" he broke before he got banned?

I have never seen ANY public forum (China, DDR and former Soviet Union excluded) that bans users because of their "wrong" opinions or free speech. Oh puh-leeze you can't be serious.

And yes, you got me interested. :)

Ken




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bySaintGeorge
Posted on11/29/02 03:36 PM



You're wrong. The moderators there have released most of the better tables. Pac doesn't 'put out very advanced and complex work', he slaps a couple of graphics on tables and calls it 'vastly improved'. Then he ignores the fact that usually he will mess with the script and the table will run slower or have bugs in it. But that doesn't matter because he once played a table with the same problems. 'New In Box' people, that's what all tables releases should play like, New In Box.

You see Pac only wants to get his name on the better releases. He's the one with the ego problem. Why would anyone be jealous of his work, its not that great. Jeez compare it to Joxer's or bezeen's or KC's or Fuseball's and you'll see how plain Pac's stuff is.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/29/02 06:12 PM



The moderators on VPF ONLY have a bad rep with the POT STIRRING, FREE SPEECH ASSWIPES that would rather BITCH, WHINGE and MOAN ALL the time rather than get news about Visual Pinball and Visual PinMame tables and developments which I might add is what the forums were set up for in the first place.

As I have said before: VPF gets stronger each day DISPITE the BS spouted by the FREESPEECH WANKS.

I think that it's a good idea that you should ALL leave VPF it would make it a much nicer place not to have to see your freespeach spouting. Go on take off and see how much info you can find elsewhere.

The reason I get along so well there is because even IF I make a comment or offer my opinion when someone post a dissagreement with my post I let it lie because I know no matter how many "Pacdude-like" essays I post in reply I am not going to change the other persons opinion so, why continue with the boring argument.

So in closing: Go away all you freespeech, pot stirring scum you'll not be missed.






SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part I) new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/29/02 06:24 PM



> Sorry, this is too hard for me to understand. Has this fellow (Pac Dude) stolen
> some work from another author and thus got banned? What "rules" he broke before
> he got banned?
>
> I have never seen ANY public forum (China, DDR and former Soviet Union excluded)
> that bans users because of their "wrong" opinions or free speech. Oh puh-leeze
> you can't be serious.
>
> And yes, you got me interested. :)
>
> Ken
>
He gets banned because he is arguing all the time with other users.
Nearly every day you could go to the forums and see another chapter in the "Pacdude-saga".
I for one don't want the forums cluttered up with Pacdude's bitches and whinges and so, it can be presumed, neither do the admins of VPF.
I want to read about VP and VPF tables and developments NOT the latest Pacdude "soap opera".
If he'd learn to shut-up he would solve most of his forum troubles.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 07:29 PM



> The moderators on VPF ONLY have a bad rep with the POT STIRRING, FREE SPEECH ASSWIPES

You aren't from Cuba or China are you? And exactly how many pins have you made or worked on? I see a lot of talk from certain people, but very little work. It's not hard to keep quiet when rules governing table recreations have no baring on your (lack of) work.





SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part I) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/29/02 07:37 PM



> He gets banned because he is arguing all the time with other users.

I'm glad that you know the reason I was banned. At least someone does (rolls eyes).

> Nearly every day you could go to the forums and see another chapter in the
> "Pacdude-saga".

Right. A person contributes to threads in the debate area and that's supposed to be bad? I never saw a rule against arguing in VPForums. They even had a debate area for "arguing" even until they started seeing other people "argue" with them about their inability to follow their own posted rules. Hell, I've started exactly 2 threads on MODS or rules thereof and 1 thread on Open Source. That's hardly a pattern. Any other discussion has been a result of either replying to someone else's outlandish comments or some jealous individual crashing in on one of my release or WIP threads with some nonsense designed to try and provoke me. I may post long diatribes, but there's no rule against that. If I'm not flaming anyone, they have no ground to stand on. The fact I never even got a warning only proves they had no basis on which to ban me.

> I want to read about VP and VPF tables and developments NOT the latest Pacdude
> "soap opera".

Well, that's what my Dr. Who WIP thread was all about until KC came barging in on it causing trouble. People try and point at me as the troublemaker, but I'm not the one that barged in with false accusations about using ramps and other BS.

> If he'd learn to shut-up he would solve most of his forum troubles.

I don't see you shutting up here. You seem to be trying to cause your own trouble with personal flames in another post down below. It's the oldest trick in the book. Do something and then point the finger at someone else.







SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byGottliebVPGD
Posted on11/30/02 00:15 AM



This is probably my last post regarding PacDude's so called banning on vpforums. I don't really pay any attention to what he posts or any of the tables he has created. Can't say as I've ever played any of them. The only reason I posted anything here was to demonstrate that there are other points of views than PD's. Any time that he makes people mad enough in the vpforums to get one of his threads deleted or moved he always comes here and does his song and dance about being a victim. If nobody else spoke up you would never know anyone's side but his and you would be forced to believe that everyone in the vp community is against him for no reason.

Well I'm affraid you're only getting half the story. His half. The reason the moderators and supporters of vpforums are forced to take action against him has nothing to do with any kind of "vendetta". Nearly everyone will agree that he is good at what he does and his skills are valuable to the VP community, but his lack of respect for other people is highly destructive to the community. I'm not saying he's the only person that causes problems but the whole modding issue and lack of cooperation and trust has caused many good developers to completely give up on VP. Even the developers of VP have had enough. The primary author has split the scene completely and the co-author is likely to let the current release die when it expires, and not release another version. This is sad that a handful of people have this much affect on what "should" be a fun hobby for all.

You may not find recreations of older EM machines your cup of tea. I can see how they wouldn't be fun for people that aren't old enough to remember what games were like before ROMS. And for the ROM collectors an EM game doesn't add anything to your collection. But there are hundreds of EM's left to do and only a few dozen of the toy box pins left. The sad thing is you think success is based not on quality but quantity. Everyone rushes out to download the latest crappy recreation of a Stern game that's covered with plastic dolls and toys and think they're getting a quality game. Boring. Real pins don't need toys or gimmicks, and you don't have to spend all your time reading rules on a dmd so you can make the skill shot worth 8 billion. Again, boring.

Anyways, those who only see one side of the arguement can stay on their side, and think whatever they want. The rest of us will go about our business making tables that real pin lovers appreciate.

End of Transmission.




SubjectFood for thought new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on11/30/02 00:43 AM



> Well, it seems I've been banned from posting once again from VPForums. I
> received no explanation why (which breaks their own moderation rules). I'm
> guessing it has something to do with my Dr. Who WIP (which is an authorized
> update of Krellan's Dr. Who table) thread where Kid Charlemagne barged in and
> threw a hissy fit, accusing me of copying his ramps (without proof, based on a
> picture) and claiming he "owned" images that are copyrighted to Williams, both
> of which are paranoid, obsessive behavior. Even so, I didn't flame him, but I
> did call him on such nonsense.
>
> In return, I now find the thread deleted without mention and my posting status
> locked. This is some thanks for working by butt off for a year and a half for
> the VP community. People begged me to work on more tables than just Addams
> Family and Twilight Zone. And so I have (over a half dozen now). In all that
> time, I have never released a table without permission.
>
> In return, I get my posting privleges revoked with no explanation and having
> broken no rules. How much do you want to bet that Kid Charlemagne still has his
> posting prileges even though he is the one that attacked my WIP thread (given
> his moderator status)? Need I even mention that I gave him a vastly improved
> version of his own Dr. Who table free of charge? I've never released that table
> (or any Dr. Who table as of this writing).
>
> I suggest anyone who is as tired of this crap as I am let the staff at VPForums
> know what you think about such actions.
>
>
>
> Looking once again, I see that Kinsey has posted the following as an explanation
> as to why "deleted threads" were deleted:
>
> "Messages to Staff -> Program -> Reason: Intent was obvious to continue the
> mod/anti-mod war. There are existing threads to discuss the issue."
>
> That is blatent NONSENSE. I had FULL PERMISSION to UPDATE Krellan's Dr. Who
> table and I never once said ANYTHING about modding any table in that thread.
> NOT ONE THING.
>
> This was about Kid Charlemagne accusing me of breaking rules I did not break.
> There is no rule against using photos that are copyrighted to Williams (he did
> not own them). And my Dr. Who table is not using his ramps, contrary to his
> claim. Even so, I've since removed one of the 3 pictures in question. Another
> one is modified and the playfield is something we BOTH worked on and so
> regardless, he can't claim it's soley his "work" even (let alone the fact it's
> from a copyrighted flyer from Williams to begin with).
>
You don't like the VPIN forums, don't agree with the rules, don't get along with the moderators, then why post there? Why not find a site *or start one* where you can upload tables and either use this message forum or another one to post your releases? There are many sites that support emulation and noone's holding you back from starting your own or working with another site...

People who want your tables will go to the site and look for updates, noone will stop you from pursuing such a course of action.

The only thing I could see is people who don't want the tables their working on modded will lock the heck out of them in order to keep them from being modded, but I'm not sure how many people would do this...

For better or worse the folks at VPinforums have the right to do as they wish with their site as Atila and moderators here hsve the right to do what they want here like any other site.

As long as you choose to ignore the wishes of those in charge at VPForums *this isn't an issue of right or wrong it's about accepting that VPForum has it's ideology and you have yours* this is what'll happen, but you do have alternate ways of dealing with it...

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted byewmboard
Posted on11/30/02 03:34 AM



> *SIGH*
> You still don't get it do you Pacdude??
> You are what we call in Australia as an "easy catch".
> What this means is that all someone has to do is dangle a small "bait" (pay
> particular attention to the word BAIT) in front of you and you come up snappin
> like a hungry croc.
> Stop being a sukka.
> This it what I mean by having BRAINS enough to know when to shut-up.
> Learn this lesson and most of your forum troubles will fade away.
> Your too easy man.
> LOL.


I see. So what you're saying is that you don't believe the stuff you post, you're simply deliberately trying to antagonise and drive away one of VP's most skilled and dedicated authors, yes?

Goodness, the irony.





SubjectRe: Let's clear up the misconceptions (Part III Final) new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/30/02 05:48 AM



> > *SIGH*
> > You still don't get it do you Pacdude??
> > You are what we call in Australia as an "easy catch".
> > What this means is that all someone has to do is dangle a small "bait" (pay
> > particular attention to the word BAIT) in front of you and you come up snappin
> > like a hungry croc.
> > Stop being a sukka.
> > This it what I mean by having BRAINS enough to know when to shut-up.
> > Learn this lesson and most of your forum troubles will fade away.
> > Your too easy man.
> > LOL.
>
>
> I see. So what you're saying is that you don't believe the stuff you post,
> you're simply deliberately trying to antagonise and drive away one of VP's most
> skilled and dedicated authors, yes?
>
> Goodness, the irony.
>
Well if it isn't "Pirate Nicky Stupi err Special".
Or should I say freelance jurno Stuart C.
I have sat back and read your attempts at sabbotaging the VPF for a long time. Now I know that you hang out here a little pay back is in order.
The difference for me will be that it doesn't matter if I get banned from this dead end pinball forum. What was it you said.... ah yes I don't give a rats arse.
I know what the consequences are for such behaviour on the VPF so, I follow the rules they set down and have no trouble.
Pacdude and you however know those rules too BUT, STILL chose to fly in the face of them and got what you deserved.
As I have said before I like Pacdudes work, always have, too bad he can't stick to that and zip his mouth.
Cya soon Nicky.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/30/02 05:52 AM



> > The moderators on VPF ONLY have a bad rep with the POT STIRRING, FREE SPEECH
> ASSWIPES
>
> You aren't from Cuba or China are you? And exactly how many pins have you made
> or worked on? I see a lot of talk from certain people, but very little work.
> It's not hard to keep quiet when rules governing table recreations have no
> baring on your (lack of) work.
>
Ah Pacdude, you can't bait me with comments like that.
I don't have as big an ego as you so, comments like that have no concern to me one way or the other.
China???
Cuba?????
With a nick "Aussiepin" maybe I'm giving you TOO MUCH credit for having brains.





SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byEmkaah
Posted on11/30/02 08:39 AM



> The moderators on VPF ONLY have a bad rep with the POT STIRRING, FREE SPEECH
> ASSWIPES that would rather BITCH, WHINGE and MOAN ALL the time rather than get
> news about Visual Pinball and Visual PinMame tables and developments which I
> might add is what the forums were set up for in the first place.
>
> As I have said before: VPF gets stronger each day DISPITE the BS spouted by the
> FREESPEECH WANKS.
>
> I think that it's a good idea that you should ALL leave VPF it would make it a
> much nicer place not to have to see your freespeach spouting. Go on take off and
> see how much info you can find elsewhere.
>
> The reason I get along so well there is because even IF I make a comment or
> offer my opinion when someone post a dissagreement with my post I let it lie
> because I know no matter how many "Pacdude-like" essays I post in reply I am not
> going to change the other persons opinion so, why continue with the boring
> argument.
>
> So in closing: Go away all you freespeech, pot stirring scum you'll not be
> missed.
>

?????

Erm... maybe a strange question, but may I ask, are you happy in life?

-Em




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on11/30/02 06:18 PM




> ?????
>
> Erm... maybe a strange question, but may I ask, are you happy in life?
>
> -Em
>
Very thank-you.
Visual Pinball has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air for this ageing Pinnut.
I hate it when a hand full of "insanly politicaly correct", "Freespeech tree huggers" try to ruin it for the multitudes of people who know how to behave themselves.
Once they're gone I will be REALLY happy in life.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bynicolas.b
Posted on11/30/02 06:39 PM



good lord! paratech just posted this link and i see all these nasty words being exchanged... what a friggin mess!

i'm really sorry to hear you've been banned, PD... anyone who puts you in the same boat as mr. special ought to have their head examined for faulty wiring!

i've never been one to think that you're a 'perfect guest', and i do think you get wound up easily, but you are a highly rational, intelligent guy who plays by all the rules that are written down... personally that's just not enough to get banned over... i've seen all the compliments and thanks come raining down on you, so i don't worry about your getting due respect...

about the only way i could see this as anything but a major blunder is if black himself asked for this to be done... i'd reluctantly have to go along because his work is crucial to the health of VP... (obviously!)

some people might point out that you can't shut up, and perhaps it's true (hmmm, perhaps i have the same problem!), but that's hardly an adult comment... folks who live in populated areas have to learn a valuable skill called "ignoring people who irritate them" and even more universal "taking people for better and for worse"...

as long as a person is willing to dialogue, you have to give them the benefit of the doubt, especially if it's clear that there is no ill-will on their part... with nicky it was always clear that he wasn't willing to entertain other people's opinions and that he enjoyed provoking people... i think you are stubborn, but have neither of these same problems... (but i am also stubborn and many people around VPFORUMS are stubborn, and the moderators have no special exemption from this quality, either!)

so... i am sorry it has come to this, and i wish you well... hopefully things can be worked out over time... there is no question i have appreciated your work honing and refining the tables you've worked on... if people got 'under the hood' and/or read the revision histories they'd see you do a lot more than just 'slap a few graphics on the table'...

this is very upsetting...


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on11/30/02 10:20 PM



> This is probably my last post regarding PacDude's so called banning on vpforums.
> I don't really pay any attention to what he posts or any of the tables he has
> created. Can't say as I've ever played any of them.

So then you don't know what the heck you're talking about now do you? People used to beg me to work on more pins than just Addams Family and Twilight Zone, but I wanted to see ProPinball type QUALITY, not just brush up a few things here and there. Only more recently (the past 8 months or so) I've started upgrading other tables as TAF and TZ have become close to ProPinball quality.

> Any time that he makes people mad enough in the vpforums to get one of his
> threads deleted or moved he always comes here and

And what people are you referring to? I've seen a handful of people including yourself that don't like my opinions on various issues. Everyone else has either not cared or has been supportive.

>does his song and dance about
> being a victim. If nobody else spoke up you would

Well where should I post when I've been banned from posting on VPForums, praytell? Should I just pack up my bags and say the hell with VP? That might make you happy since you don't give a crap about modern pins, but you are in the minority.

> Well I'm affraid you're only getting half the story.
>His half. The reason the

Actually, no one hardly ever gets to see the "other half" because the moderators don't post reasons half the time for their actions, even though they claim they're supposed to.

> Nearly everyone will agree that he is
> good at what he does and his skills are valuable to the VP community, but his
> lack of respect for other people is highly destructive to the community. I'm not

What lack of respect? I've never released any mods of tables without permission. NOT ONCE. I've always given credit for work provided by other people in the revision history notes and/or Table Info Author section.

In this Dr. Who case, it was KC who first disrespected *me* by claiming credit for ramps he judged to be his based on a picture and then proceeded to start an argument. KC is a moderator. BJ did something similar in another thread in the past.

Even so, I'm already talking to KC again in private. He's apologized for attacking my WIP thrad in public and I've apologized for my responses there. We're very close to working this out, which I give him a lot more credit for now than some of the other staff at VPForums. We have very differing viewpoints on mods, ownership of images, etc., but that doesn't mean it's impossible for us to get along "professionally" so-to-speak. The whole David Lee Roth / Sammy Hagar thing comes to mind (having seen the VH-1 special on their tour together recently). They're nothing alike, but they get along better (they can at least tolerate each other enough to go on tour) than either of them gets along with the rest of Van Halen these days.

> saying he's the only person that causes problems but the whole modding issue and
> lack of cooperation and trust has caused many good

Lack of cooperation? I've worked with some of the best VP table and script authors out there and I've had no trouble with 90% of them. KC and Joep are the only real exceptions and neither had personal cause for their attitudes (I had never flamed either one or released any mods without their permission). Even so that didn't stop Joep from giving me permission to work on Diner when I asked.

Right now I'm working with wpcmame via e-mail on several table upgrades. Lack of cooperation? Right. Half the tables I've worked on (13+) have involved cooperation.

> up on VP. Even the developers of VP have had enough. The primary author has
> split the scene completely and the co-author is likely to let the current
> release die when it expires, and not release another

And you're trying to pin that on *me*? Give me a break. Even Black doesn't seem to know what happened to Randy or why. As for Black, well he had nothing to do with that thread other than his annoucement in it, which I still tend to think is just laying the groundwork for selling VP if he gets the chance. Nothing selse makes any sense because that thread had NOTHING to do with him.

> a few dozen of the toy box pins left. The sad thing is you think success is
> based not on quality but quantity. Everyone rushes

See my first statement in this thread. Few people care MORE about QUALITY than me, which is why my attention to detail is downright anal. If you had actually downloaded TAF, TZ, or any other number of tables and looked at the before and after versions you'd see the huge improvements in quality and gameplay. But then since you don't care about modern pins in general, you wouldn't care if you did.

out to download the latest
> crappy recreation of a Stern game that's covered with plastic dolls and toys and

Stern? I've never worked on a Stern game. Other than Rocky & Bullwinkle (DataEast), everything I've worked on has been Bally/Williams, which has always been a couple of grades above the rest for the most part.

> think they're getting a quality game. Boring. Real pins don't need toys or
> gimmicks, and you don't have to spend all your time

Now you're insulting an entire generation of pinball games. I could just as easily say that EMs and early SS games are obscenely EASY by comparison and have very little to do that isn't entirely repetitive. But who cares? Some people love pinball for different reasons and I don't expect people to agree.






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byGottliebVPGD
Posted on12/01/02 00:29 AM



As I said. No further comments on the subject. Skipped right over your reply. I did notice it took a while to delete from the reply window, so it must have been at least 6 chapters. I look forward to the book, or maybe I'll wait til the movie's on cable.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPinball Ken
Posted on12/01/02 02:44 AM



> > > The moderators on VPF ONLY have a bad rep with the POT STIRRING, FREE SPEECH
> > ASSWIPES
> >
> > You aren't from Cuba or China are you? And exactly how many pins have you
> made
> > or worked on? I see a lot of talk from certain people, but very little work.
> > It's not hard to keep quiet when rules governing table recreations have no
> > baring on your (lack of) work.
> >
> Ah Pacdude, you can't bait me with comments like that.
> I don't have as big an ego as you so, comments like that have no concern to me
> one way or the other.
> China???
> Cuba?????
> With a nick "Aussiepin" maybe I'm giving you TOO MUCH credit for having brains.
>
Perhaps you are, Black. Perhaps you are ...

LOL

PK




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPinball Ken
Posted on12/01/02 02:58 AM



> Well, it seems I've been banned from posting once again from VPForums. I
> received no explanation why (which breaks their own moderation rules). I'm
> guessing it has something to do with my Dr. Who WIP (which is an authorized
> update of Krellan's Dr. Who table) thread where Kid Charlemagne barged in and
> threw a hissy fit, accusing me of copying his ramps (without proof, based on a
> picture) and claiming he "owned" images that are copyrighted to Williams, both
> of which are paranoid, obsessive behavior. Even so, I didn't flame him, but I
> did call him on such nonsense.
>
> In return, I now find the thread deleted without mention and my posting status
> locked. This is some thanks for working by butt off for a year and a half for
> the VP community. People begged me to work on more tables than just Addams
> Family and Twilight Zone. And so I have (over a half dozen now). In all that
> time, I have never released a table without permission.
>
> In return, I get my posting privleges revoked with no explanation and having
> broken no rules. How much do you want to bet that Kid Charlemagne still has his
> posting prileges even though he is the one that attacked my WIP thread (given
> his moderator status)? Need I even mention that I gave him a vastly improved
> version of his own Dr. Who table free of charge? I've never released that table
> (or any Dr. Who table as of this writing).
>
> I suggest anyone who is as tired of this crap as I am let the staff at VPForums
> know what you think about such actions.
>
>
>
> Looking once again, I see that Kinsey has posted the following as an explanation
> as to why "deleted threads" were deleted:
>
> "Messages to Staff -> Program -> Reason: Intent was obvious to continue the
> mod/anti-mod war. There are existing threads to discuss the issue."
>
> That is blatent NONSENSE. I had FULL PERMISSION to UPDATE Krellan's Dr. Who
> table and I never once said ANYTHING about modding any table in that thread.
> NOT ONE THING.
>
> This was about Kid Charlemagne accusing me of breaking rules I did not break.
> There is no rule against using photos that are copyrighted to Williams (he did
> not own them). And my Dr. Who table is not using his ramps, contrary to his
> claim. Even so, I've since removed one of the 3 pictures in question. Another
> one is modified and the playfield is something we BOTH worked on and so
> regardless, he can't claim it's soley his "work" even (let alone the fact it's
> from a copyrighted flyer from Williams to begin with).
>
Well, this is what I posted in the VPForums, and 24hrs later Debate Central went off the air ...

QUOTE:

I'm not exactly a fan of PacDude ...
------------------------------------

... but I do think that the matter of his exclusion has been handled rather badly.

The guy is obviously passionate (some may say obsessive) about pinball, to the exclusion of other people's feelings sometimes. But that is no crime in itself.

I can sense his 'frustration' on Dr Who, that following on from working on the Time Expander with Kid Charlemagne, the work is effectively put on hold. He's also refined it since, removed further issues, and is now told, in effect, it's not his to play with!

Then the thread on Dr Who is archived (in the Visual Pinball section for some strange reason), and he is excluded from posting. I call that high handed on the part of the moderators!

I don't think any party to this is coming out too well.

I further think we should wind things back a bit here. Let Kid Charlemagne give retrospective permission for PacDude to use the Time Expander in Krellan's version of the table, and stop carping at modders. Let PacDude return on the understanding he thinks about people first over pinball, and stops thinking he's God's gift to Visual Pinball.

If we don't do something like this, we're going to have more and more members wondering what the hell these forums are about. We're certainly going to be the poorer for tables to play. What with Kid Charlemagne's paranoia at releasing his tables to all but a few chosen people, and now PacDude's departure, that's half the 'new' tables gone at one fell swoop!

PK

UNQUOTE:

There've been some good responses to you here, PacDude, so take heart, but an underlying message too. My 2 cents is to believe that your passion for pinball has overidden your feelings for others and what they want. That extends all the way from Randy and Black to lately Fuseball. You've a great knack of swamping others' work in your quest for the perfect pintable, but there're some other great authors out there too. Don't ever forget that, PacDude, otherwise you're going to be treading a long lonely path.

PK






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/01/02 08:06 AM



> Well, this is what I posted in the VPForums, and 24hrs later Debate Central went
> off the air ...
>
> QUOTE:
>
> I'm not exactly a fan of PacDude ...

I would never have guessed that attitude from your replies to my table release threads. Love the work, but dislike the person eh PK?

>here. Let Kid Charlemagne give
> retrospective permission for PacDude to use the Time Expander in Krellan's
> version of the table, and stop carping at modders.

Retrospective? I've never released the table so it's not retrospective permission that's needed. And I've already worked things out with KC and he has given me his OK now to use the images in question. It's funny how we've worked things out but the ban persists. He admitted all he got was a warning, which shows unequal moderation practices, not to mention they didn't follow their own warning/reason rule (I still don't know why my posting privleges have been banned). Ironically, it's KC who now says he's going to try and straighten it out. I have to give him credit there.

>Let PacDude return on the
> understanding he thinks about people first over pinball, and stops thinking he's
> God's gift to Visual Pinball.

God's gift to Visual Pinball? LOL. I'm aware of my table build quality, but I hardly thing I've ever come across as egotistical about my work. Having a strong opinion on various issues does not neccessarily equate to an egotistical attitude. I always listen to feedback and I normally try to implement any reasonable suggestions (certain flipper settings not-withstanding) and my tables are always OPEN and FREE TO MOD. I think you've enjoyed the openness by being able to change any number of settings by your own admission PK. I would have thought you would appreciate that.


> underlying message too. My 2 cents is to believe that your passion for pinball
> has overidden your feelings for others and what they want. That extends all the
> way from Randy and Black to lately Fuseball. You've a

Fuseball? What the heck have I done to Fuseball? This is all news to me. I asked permission to update TOTAN and CV and he gladly gave it. He in fact seemed to love my TOTAN update. I don't EVER recall having any problems or even slightly negative words between him and myself. He and I probably get along better than any other authors, although lately wpcmame and I have been working a lot together (I just got a T2 script update from him yesterday).

As for Randy, I haven't talked to him in like over 6 months and I don't recall EVER having any hard words with him. Black is another story, but Black has an attitude problem sometimes (just look back at when he bit Paratech's head off just because Paratech said he didn't think Stein's Jetsons table "was that great." I mean I'm talking about death threats here over a SLIGHTLY negative comment. He said he didn't care if he got banned over it and instead someone gave him super moderator status???? That's the LAST thing I would have done. I mean I appreciate his work on VP, but look what he's doing lately. He's threatening to just let VP6 expire and leave. I'd call that holding the entire community hostage with that threat. Sure, he doesn't owe us to work on VP, but that's just plain heartless. The very least he could do is give VP6 no expiration date if he's going to leave the scene. Better yet, he could hand it over to someone talented he trusts to continue working on it.

My suspicion lies along the lines of him wanting to sell it to a corporation (that would likely change it to something less difficult to use and therefore render it incompatible with the current versions). Thus, all ties to the current version would have to be cut sooner or later in such a scenerio. The main reason I suspect this is because he stated in another thread a few weeks earlier that he had corporate buyers looking at VP and it would likely go commercial or at least shareware in the future and that he "had his own plans for VP" (this mentioned AFTER he said he hadn't heard from Randy in months). I think that's some pretty strong proof that something fishy is going on and it's not just because I pissed him off by arguing with KC over a table. That doens't even make sense. He then deleted his own comments soon after as "off topic."


>great knack of swamping
> others' work in your quest for the perfect pintable, but there're some other
> great authors out there too. Don't ever forget that, PacDude, otherwise you're going to be treading a long lonely path.

I consider every author whose table I've ever worked on to be "great authors" otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with their tables. I generally only try to "perfect" HIGH QUALITY tables to begin with. If they weren't high quality, it would have been easier to start over. I simply try to bring these tables up to TZ or near TZ standards and I fully recognize I did NOT make TZ alone. It was already a pretty good quality table when I started working on it with Dorsola. It's near perfect now, but even so wpcmame deserves most of the credit for the current script.






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/01/02 08:26 AM



> I don't have as big an ego as you so, comments like that have no concern to me

Apparently your ego is big enough to feel you have the right to get rid of anyone that disagrees with you, though. I'd call that a pretty darn big ego. I may argue with people over issues sometimes, but I don't try to get rid of them or call them names. I'd call that a step up from where you're standing.


> With a nick "Aussiepin" maybe I'm giving you TOO MUCH credit for having brains.
>

Well Pinball Ken seems to think you're Black and gaging by Black's little hissy fit with Paratech where he threatened him with a death threat because he had the gaul to say he didn't think Stein's Jetsons table was all that great... well regardless you two seem to have quite a bit in common with your temper and nasty attitude towards people that disagree with you along with living on the same continent. Maybe having to eat all that horrid Aussie food (yuck; It's a good thing Outback Steakhouse is actually American because the real stuff is almost inedible) gets to your brain or something. Threatening to let VP expire because two people are arguing about something that has nothing to do with him is just plain ridiculous. And yet you call *me* the whining asswipe? I always have more respect for people that can state their view without all the personal flames, regardless of whether I disagree with them on something or not. But I don't expect someone like yourself to know much about respect.






SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byEmkaah
Posted on12/01/02 11:46 AM



>
> > ?????
> >
> > Erm... maybe a strange question, but may I ask, are you happy in life?
> >
> > -Em
> >
> Very thank-you.
> Visual Pinball has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air for this ageing
> Pinnut.
> I hate it when a hand full of "insanly politicaly correct", "Freespeech tree
> huggers" try to ruin it for the multitudes of people who know how to behave
> themselves.
> Once they're gone I will be REALLY happy in life.
>

Ok, cool. I hope one day you can accept that there will always be people, who have different opinions then you have and cope with it as an adult, so you can be REALLY happy in life.

-Em





SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on12/01/02 05:37 PM



> >
> > > ?????
> > >
> > > Erm... maybe a strange question, but may I ask, are you happy in life?
> > >
> > > -Em
> > >
> > Very thank-you.
> > Visual Pinball has been nothing short of a breath of fresh air for this ageing
> > Pinnut.
> > I hate it when a hand full of "insanly politicaly correct", "Freespeech tree
> > huggers" try to ruin it for the multitudes of people who know how to behave
> > themselves.
> > Once they're gone I will be REALLY happy in life.
> >
>
> Ok, cool. I hope one day you can accept that there will always be people, who
> have different opinions then you have and cope with it as an adult, so you can
> be REALLY happy in life.
>
> -Em
>
I TOTALLY accept the fact that there are people with differing opinions than me that's why there are murderers, rapists, thieves and child molesters in the world BUT, I don't have to accept THEM any more than the hand full of freespeech nuts who try to ruin the VPF.
I will admit to being Badly behaved on this forum BUT, for a reason.
Just look at the upset reaction I have been getting here.
Maybe you all should have a look and say: Well maybe this is how the majority of the VPF users feel when Pacdude (and others) go off on ANOTHER one of their bitch sessions.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on12/01/02 05:40 PM



> > I don't have as big an ego as you so, comments like that have no concern to me
>
> Apparently your ego is big enough to feel you have the right to get rid of
> anyone that disagrees with you, though. I'd call that a pretty darn big ego. I
> may argue with people over issues sometimes, but I don't try to get rid of them
> or call them names. I'd call that a step up from where you're standing.
>
>
> > With a nick "Aussiepin" maybe I'm giving you TOO MUCH credit for having
> brains.
> >
>
> Well Pinball Ken seems to think you're Black and gaging by Black's little hissy
> fit with Paratech where he threatened him with a death threat because he had the
> gaul to say he didn't think Stein's Jetsons table was all that great... well
> regardless you two seem to have quite a bit in common with your temper and nasty
> attitude towards people that disagree with you along with living on the same
> continent. Maybe having to eat all that horrid Aussie food (yuck; It's a good
> thing Outback Steakhouse is actually American because the real stuff is almost
> inedible) gets to your brain or something. Threatening to let VP expire because
> two people are arguing about something that has nothing to do with him is just
> plain ridiculous. And yet you call *me* the whining asswipe? I always have
> more respect for people that can state their view without all the personal
> flames, regardless of whether I disagree with them on something or not. But I
> don't expect someone like yourself to know much about respect.
>
Just keep going the way you are Pacdude and you'll be on a permanent ban before you know it and all will be well.




SubjectGet a load of this new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on12/01/02 09:32 PM



http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22402
From Gravitar
Messages to Staff: Additional Rules

Gravitar
--------
There will be no "pontificating, posturing, soapboxing and fingerpointing" tolerated here. Also, this isn't a bitch, whine, piss and moan" forum. Any post/reply that fits into the above catagories and/or goes against the forum guidelines will be deleted and offender(s) disciplined accordingly.

Gravitar

__________________
The Gods Made Visual Pinball And They Saw That It Was Good
They Said To Play It Louder Than Heck,
We Promised That We Would.
When Losers Say It's Over With You Know That It's A Lie
The Gods Made Visual Pinball And It's Never Gonna Die

My Reply
--------
I don't mean to be rude, but this sounds kind of childish. Seriously, I may not agree with PacDude, Nicky Special, etc, etc, but it seems that rather than waging ideological warfare and 'ban anyone' / 'delete posts' of those who disagree with those in power either there needs to be a settlement whereas people need to accept the fact that there are many diverse views and that noone is going to change other people's views otherwise the VP community is going to fragment into many pieces...

I don't agree with either side. On one hand I don't see having a number of ROMs as killing a dead industry unless they are of current tables *and heck I'll play any Pinball machine I can find except the ones in Erie becase they're more broke than even TOM, TZ, and Demolition Man the local vendor owns....

All this posturing your doing is showing PacDude he's right, this is wrong, moderators shouldn't be doing this crap and frankly if I get banned standing up against it, ask me if I give a crap?

Having power means thinking before using it, if you think being a moderator gives you and iron fist, you mistook what it was all about...
Please reconsider this nonsense before the community destroys itself...
------------------
Ok PacDude, this a community you care you were booted from? Sheesh, I might be joining you 'dude! LOL :) Bet you never saw that coming? :P


The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectHeeHee new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on12/01/02 09:41 PM




Your Addams Family 6.5 thread has been 'locked'
http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22165&pagenumber=2
mkruce25
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Pinball Ken


PS PacDude would have the answer there. Oh, I'm forgetting, he can't post here anymore ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



If that's a fact, then this place is going to hell in a hand basket. The only one's left will be the kiss a** suck-ups who ruffle no feathers, question not, and who do whatever they're told. A definate microcosm of the state of the world. George Orwell must be laughing somewhere. Those in control want the masses to be prozac ladened. Look straight ahead and mind your business. Or the ministry of thought will come and get you. Remember, we control the horizontal. We control the vertical. You will watch what we want you to watch. You will hear what we want you to hear. We will edit the truth. We will keep things squeaky clean like network TV. And we will burn all books that we feel is not in our best interests. Big Brother will squash freedom of thought and freedom of speech. It's a shame. Folks around here used to be quite open and fun. Yeh, there were a few who pushed the envelope, but in a world wide community, freedom of expression should be welcomed. Sure there are guidelines we need to adhere to. But a fascist rule only leads to revolt. And in a democratic community, I thought the masses rule, not a select few. It should be interesting to see who's next on the hit list. So friends...watch what you do. Watch what you say. Or at least, watch how you say it. Perhaps you'll be next to go. Who knows? Now that I've expressed my opinion, I may get axed. If that's so, it's been nice knowing y'all! Peace to all. Keep looking straight ahead, and mind your business. And make sure your papers are in order. Big Brother frowns on such mistakes.

__________________
VP Table Backdrops

Any thoughts?

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byPinball Ken
Posted on12/02/02 02:43 AM



> > Well, this is what I posted in the VPForums, and 24hrs later Debate Central
> went
> > off the air ...
> >
> > QUOTE:
> >
> > I'm not exactly a fan of PacDude ...
>
> I would never have guessed that attitude from your replies to my table release
> threads. Love the work, but dislike the person eh PK?
>
> >here. Let Kid Charlemagne give
> > retrospective permission for PacDude to use the Time Expander in Krellan's
> > version of the table, and stop carping at modders.
>
> Retrospective? I've never released the table so it's not retrospective
> permission that's needed. And I've already worked things out with KC and he has
> given me his OK now to use the images in question. It's funny how we've worked
> things out but the ban persists. He admitted all he got was a warning, which
> shows unequal moderation practices, not to mention they didn't follow their own
> warning/reason rule (I still don't know why my posting privleges have been
> banned). Ironically, it's KC who now says he's going to try and straighten it
> out. I have to give him credit there.
>
> >Let PacDude return on the
> > understanding he thinks about people first over pinball, and stops thinking
> he's
> > God's gift to Visual Pinball.
>
> God's gift to Visual Pinball? LOL. I'm aware of my table build quality, but I
> hardly thing I've ever come across as egotistical about my work. Having a
> strong opinion on various issues does not neccessarily equate to an egotistical
> attitude. I always listen to feedback and I normally try to implement any
> reasonable suggestions (certain flipper settings not-withstanding) and my tables
> are always OPEN and FREE TO MOD. I think you've enjoyed the openness by being
> able to change any number of settings by your own admission PK. I would have
> thought you would appreciate that.
>
>
> > underlying message too. My 2 cents is to believe that your passion for pinball
> > has overidden your feelings for others and what they want. That extends all
> the
> > way from Randy and Black to lately Fuseball. You've a
>
> Fuseball? What the heck have I done to Fuseball? This is all news to me. I
> asked permission to update TOTAN and CV and he gladly gave it. He in fact
> seemed to love my TOTAN update. I don't EVER recall having any problems or even
> slightly negative words between him and myself. He and I probably get along
> better than any other authors, although lately wpcmame and I have been working a
> lot together (I just got a T2 script update from him yesterday).
>
> As for Randy, I haven't talked to him in like over 6 months and I don't recall
> EVER having any hard words with him. Black is another story, but Black has an
> attitude problem sometimes (just look back at when he bit Paratech's head off
> just because Paratech said he didn't think Stein's Jetsons table "was that
> great." I mean I'm talking about death threats here over a SLIGHTLY negative
> comment. He said he didn't care if he got banned over it and instead someone
> gave him super moderator status???? That's the LAST thing I would have done.
> I mean I appreciate his work on VP, but look what he's doing lately. He's
> threatening to just let VP6 expire and leave. I'd call that holding the entire
> community hostage with that threat. Sure, he doesn't owe us to work on VP, but
> that's just plain heartless. The very least he could do is give VP6 no
> expiration date if he's going to leave the scene. Better yet, he could hand it
> over to someone talented he trusts to continue working on it.
>
> My suspicion lies along the lines of him wanting to sell it to a corporation
> (that would likely change it to something less difficult to use and therefore
> render it incompatible with the current versions). Thus, all ties to the
> current version would have to be cut sooner or later in such a scenerio. The
> main reason I suspect this is because he stated in another thread a few weeks
> earlier that he had corporate buyers looking at VP and it would likely go
> commercial or at least shareware in the future and that he "had his own plans
> for VP" (this mentioned AFTER he said he hadn't heard from Randy in months). I
> think that's some pretty strong proof that something fishy is going on and it's
> not just because I pissed him off by arguing with KC over a table. That doens't
> even make sense. He then deleted his own comments soon after as "off topic."
>
>
> >great knack of swamping
> > others' work in your quest for the perfect pintable, but there're some other
> > great authors out there too. Don't ever forget that, PacDude, otherwise you're
> going to be treading a long lonely path.
>
> I consider every author whose table I've ever worked on to be "great authors"
> otherwise I wouldn't have bothered with their tables. I generally only try to
> "perfect" HIGH QUALITY tables to begin with. If they weren't high quality, it
> would have been easier to start over. I simply try to bring these tables up to
> TZ or near TZ standards and I fully recognize I did NOT make TZ alone. It was
> already a pretty good quality table when I started working on it with Dorsola.
> It's near perfect now, but even so wpcmame deserves most of the credit for the
> current script.
>
No, I don't dislike you! Read through what I've said again.

Actually I've been trying to get you reinstated, cos I think the moderators' action has been less than equal here.

PK

PS I'm also very glad you've patched things up with Kid Charlemagne now.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bynicolas.b
Posted on12/02/02 10:55 AM



AUSSIEPIN:
> Just keep going the way you are Pacdude and you'll be on a permanent ban before
> you know it and all will be well.

BLACK:
"Aussie Pin is certainly not me.. I've never and never will post at retrogames."

aussie- no offense, but... who the HELL are you??




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byAussiePin
Posted on12/02/02 05:33 PM



> AUSSIEPIN:
> > Just keep going the way you are Pacdude and you'll be on a permanent ban
> before
> > you know it and all will be well.
>
> BLACK:
> "Aussie Pin is certainly not me.. I've never and never will post at retrogames."
>
> aussie- no offense, but... who the HELL are you??
>
I am NOT going to tell you that because it would reflect badly on my good name on the VPF.
I am the first to admit that my actions here are on the exteme side and the reason I have done this is that I am FURIOUS about the handfull of TWERPS who are stuffing up VPF for those of us (the majority) who are concerned with pinball only.
Nicky Stupi err.. Special has done too much to be EVER welcomed back at VPF.
I would like to see Pacdude turn it all around and consentrate on his pinball making and IGNORE anyone who tries to "BAIT" him BUT, I can't see that happening.
Call my actions here a "venting of my emotions" a "saftey valve" if you will.
I don't know where these "freespeechers" got the idea that they could say whatever they wanted on the VPF. I've looked through the guidelines a few times and can see NOTHING that says "post anything you want".
I've felt much better now I've released all that pent up anger.




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byParatech
Posted on12/02/02 05:47 PM



See as a 'freespeecher' my name, reputation, everythings on the line. Much as I like Kinsey's work she can read my posts and ban me if she, AJ, or anyone else sees the need.

You, on the other hand, acting anonomously, aren't showing any courage. Care to step up to the plate and put your name with your ideology on the line?

Otherwise piss off, if you can't speak with your name at VPForum you have no business saying anything at all, IMSHO...

And yes my 'full' name's even been used here, Chris "Paratech" Cummins...At least if I fall it's standing up for what I believe in, what's your excuse? Can't handle the fire???

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byEmkaah
Posted on12/02/02 06:36 PM



> > aussie- no offense, but... who the HELL are you??
> >
> I am NOT going to tell you that because it would reflect badly on my good name
> on the VPF.
> I am the first to admit that my actions here are on the exteme side and the
> reason I have done this is that I am FURIOUS about the handfull of TWERPS who
> are stuffing up VPF for those of us (the majority) who are concerned with
> pinball only.
> Nicky Stupi err.. Special has done too much to be EVER welcomed back at VPF.
> I would like to see Pacdude turn it all around and consentrate on his pinball
> making and IGNORE anyone who tries to "BAIT" him BUT, I can't see that
> happening.
> Call my actions here a "venting of my emotions" a "saftey valve" if you will.
> I don't know where these "freespeechers" got the idea that they could say
> whatever they wanted on the VPF. I've looked through the guidelines a few times
> and can see NOTHING that says "post anything you want".
> I've felt much better now I've released all that pent up anger.
>

Hey Cowboy, glad that you could release your anger in a freespeech forum.

I hope to see your Spiderman-table before VP expires.

-Em




SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted bynicolas.b
Posted on12/02/02 07:06 PM



> I am the first to admit that my actions here are on the exteme side and the
> reason I have done this is that I am FURIOUS

heh-heh... okay, it's hard to argue with that... :-)

i certainly don't share your viewpoint about these "freespeech nuts"... you sound like some stodgy old retired military figure... "back in MY day...!"

then again, i may sound like some righteous young punk out to save the world... heh-heh




SubjectYou have to love hypocrites... or do you? new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/02/02 08:52 PM



> reason I have done this is that I am FURIOUS about the handfull of TWERPS who
> are stuffing up VPF for those of us (the majority) who are concerned with
> pinball only.

I guess you must really hate the existance of the Outlane then. Is it the next forum to be deleted?

> I would like to see Pacdude turn it all around and consentrate on his pinball
> making and IGNORE anyone who tries to "BAIT" him BUT,

Well, if you had ignored ME, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, now would we? "Hook, line and sinker" as they say. Cha-Ching!

I was banned over something that was really none of your business, after all. I broke no rules in the argument and it didn't involve you. Now you want VPForums to be happy happy world. Sorry, but unless you drug everyone there, it's not going to happen. More people are just going to get banned under these ridiculous new rules (no posturing or finger pointing; right; let's all sing Kumbaya now!) "No personal flames" is a reasonable rule. "No arguing" is ridiculous. I can't imagine how the "new improved" debate forums is going to work if people can't posture anymore. "well you're right, but I think this is also right." "You're wrong..." (BZZZZZZZZT! Banned!) LOL.


> Call my actions here a "venting of my emotions" a "saftey valve" if you will.

So you can do that, but when *I* do it I'm a freespeech asswipe? What the hell does that make you, then? Welcome to the club. :)

The only difference between you and me is I at least have the balls to post behind the same name here.

You, however cannot even recognize that your behavior is IDENTICAL to mine here. You are being a pretentous, whining crybaby. But I'm at least one step ahead of you. I'm aware of my whining behavior on here. But then as whiny as I might be saying it, there's some truth in my words as well. But then I'd rather change my handle to "whining crybaby" than be a loser that has to use assumed names before he lashes out at the world.

Hell, Paratech and I have *NEVER* gotten along, but even he's ready to leave with the ridiculous way the forums are being run now.

> I don't know where these "freespeechers" got the idea that they could say
> whatever they wanted on the VPF. I've looked through

I don't know where you get the idea that this is about free speech. I don't recall an argument about free speech right before I got banned. This was about an argument between KC and myself over who has the right to use various images and what not and it's since been resolved on our own in private without the need for moderators or any other BS.

All banning me did (while only giving KC a warning) and locking more threads and introducing ridiculous new rules is prove that my whining here is VERY ACCURATE.

> I've felt much better now I've released all that pent up anger.

You say you think the best thing to do is IGNORE someone, but your "venting" on here only proves YOU YOURSELF *CANNOT* even follow your own rules. You simply do it here to protect your name. You gotta love hypocrites because they don't even KNOW they're hypocrites! That's what makes them so amusing. I firmly beleieve you don't even see it. Take your blinders off and come join the rest of us in the real world. Then we'll ALL get along better.

The real answer is not to ban people, but respect their right to disagree with you. That's how free speech really "works" after all. Supressing it only causes rebellion. Allowing it and even encouraging it is what acutally puts the rebellions to rest. If you ever get a little wisdom some day, maybe you'll see that I'm right. I guarantee the way it's going now you're only going to divide the community big time. You may think you want to get rid of all the "freespeech wankers," but I don't think you realize just how many "wankers" you've offended with that statement. My entire country is based on FREEDOM (speech, press, right to bear arms and otherwise). And most of us appreciate it. Some of us are even willing to fight for it, but I would have thought that would have been obvious in the past year or so. We don't put up with terrorists and we certainly don't make deals with them.





SubjectWonders Never Cease ; Let's go party Paratech! :) new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/02/02 09:12 PM



> --------
> There will be no "pontificating, posturing, soapboxing and fingerpointing"
> tolerated here. Also, this isn't a bitch, whine, piss and moan" forum. Any
> post/reply that fits into the above catagories and/or goes against the forum
> guidelines will be deleted and offender(s) disciplined accordingly.

That sounds like a REAL FUN place to go, doesn't it Paratech old buddy? Maybe you and I should go have a drink sometime and hang out because the Pinball World is ending? :)

> The Gods Made Visual Pinball And They Saw That It Was Good
> They Said To Play It Louder Than Heck,
> We Promised That We Would.
> When Losers Say It's Over With You Know That It's A Lie
> The Gods Made Visual Pinball And It's Never Gonna Die

So R&B are Gods now? Geeze. And someone said I have an ego?

> My Reply
> --------
> I don't mean to be rude, but this sounds kind of childish. Seriously, I may not
> agree with PacDude, Nicky Special, etc, etc, but it seems that rather than
> waging ideological warfare and 'ban anyone' / 'delete

Right you are. As I told our anonymous wanker friend below, if they had any wisdom, they'd ENCOURAGE free speech because by banning it, they're only going to create even more rebellion. You don't have to agree with me or even like me to see that this has gone too far. And while I may be "whining" or "crying" here, call me the crying man because it's all true. I hope this proves it once and for all to the people who think I've been exaggerating all this time. The only difference is the last time I willingly left. This time some coward booted me out. But it's starting to feel kind of cozy here at Retrogames.

I don't know...what do you think Paratech? Should we have a party here? I mean let's celebrate the soon coming downfall of the communist regime that VP Forums has become. I can kick it off with a near 100% accurate version of Dr. Who. Just got to get the Dalek EMReel animation perfected (or at least improved) first...

>Erie becase they're more broke

Erie, PA? We might not be as far away to have that drink as I thought. :)

> Having power means thinking before using it, if you think being a moderator
> gives you and iron fist, you mistook what it was all about...

They say power corrupts, but I never thought being the moderator of a message board would go this far. As far as I'm concerend, I've never seen anything that has made me think that VPForums ever even NEEDED moderation. It's not like all hell breaks loose every other day. So there's been some strong disagreement about modding rules, etc. Big Whoop. Those are might small fries compared to the things I've seen elsewhere.

Hell, I said as much many moons ago and even asked for a forum without moderation where people could let shit break loose once in awhile if needed to break up the tension over things like rules that go too far.... People thought no, that's bad. Let's support whatever our moderators say like good little robots.

Well I say ENOUGH. We don't need VPForums to do VP. It's just a friggin' MESSAGE BOARD for goodness sake. They're a dime a dozen. If this one is inadquate, we can always make a new one somewhere else. I did like AJ's new pinball server, though as it can now be kept up-to-date and it's in alpha order etc., but it's hardly neccessary to distribute tables and easily recreated if needed.

Personally I hate to see the community "split up" so-to-speak, but I don't see where the staff at VPForums is leaving much room for it now they've seem to have adopted our wanker friend's viewpoint about no arguing what-so-ever. Do we have to all have the same haircut and wear the same clothes now too? Get your official VP look-alike uniform now for only $19.95!


> Please reconsider this nonsense before the community destroys itself...
> ------------------
> Ok PacDude, this a community you care you were booted from? Sheesh, I might be
> joining you 'dude! LOL :) Bet you never saw that coming? :P

Hey, I'll buy the first round. Whatcha drinking?






SubjectRe: You have to love hypocrites... or do you? new Reply to this message
Posted bykristian
Posted on12/02/02 09:34 PM



PD, drop me an email (kristiantanner@hotmail.com). ;)


SubjectRe: Banned Again new Reply to this message
Posted byVmprHntrD
Posted on12/14/02 09:16 PM



I'm seeing a lot of bs here, hell this was linked in another forum. For starters if PacDude=PacD who I had helping me in admining the VGN forums for a couple years the accusations on him flying don't fit as I know him decently well. Also if he is so damn guilty, why make the effort to come over here, rub it in his face, then say 'farewell' enjoy your ban, then keep shooting your fucking mouth off farther. It really seems to me someone didn't like the work of another and abused his precious bullshit status to act like a toughguy and silence someone else. Then furthering it a huge gottlieb nut and a roobanger just keep posting to aggravate the situation. If you want him to stfu, then do it yourself and stop posting adding more gas on the fire. Appears to me you're enjoying this and you're acting just as, if not more immature. Chickenshits, grow up. And as I am probably right being you are the PacD I know, take a bit of advice...fuck 'em all, keep what you got to yourself because ego driven bullshit that was flung here makes it clear they don't deserve shit from someone who puts in the time and effort so let em do it themselves. (That or just released all you have, they can't do shit, they don't own the original images -- copyright holders do so all they can do is cry and act immature as seen above.)

And unlike the morons saying 'this is my last post' it is in regards to me as underwear stains such as yourselves don't deserve the time of day. PD you can find me over at EC as I don't check sak's that much anymore if you want to PM me or something.




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