I keep hearing about someone(s) causing total hell over at VPF about a year ago. Im seeing references about that in recent posts/threads recently with all of the comotion going on about PacDudes banning, debate central etc.

Could anyone fill me in as to what happened last year? Sorry, Im just curious with all the references around. Im not trying to cause trouble or anything, but my curiousity is tweaked.

I really didnt want to ask anyone over at VPF (for obvious reasons). ;)

Hoping me asking this doesnt get me shitlisted or anything. LOL

> I keep hearing about someone(s) causing total hell over at VPF about a year ago.

The only incident I recall of causing "total hell" was a little over a year ago and it was when Nicky Special released a PREVIEW PICTURE of Steins' Jetsons table with a more "cartoony" style backdrop picture (usin Jetsons characters) Nicky had made instead of the abstract art one that Stein included.

The following events occurred in short detail:

1> Stein exploded in anger over Nicky posting a preview picture.

2> Stein's supporters started blasting Nicky for doing such an AWFUL thing (keep in mind he had not released the picture and said that if Stein had asked him not to, he would not have).

3> Paratech about this time declared he didn't much care for Stein's Jetsons table and Black came in and gave Paratech a death threat style FLAME that few would ever think would be allowed on VPForums without a banning occuring, but Black being Black (i.e. a co-developer of VP itself), there was no way in HELL they were even going to give him a WARNING, let alone ban him from posting (even though he said he was so mad he didn't care if they did). AGAIN, *all* Paratech said was that he didn't much care for the table, nothing really insulting.

4> Meanwhile, the crap over the backdrop picture kept getting worse and worse as the topic veered into "you need permission for this and that" and Nicky got on his soap box and proclaimed they were all hypocrites, that stealing copyrighted images and roms didn't mean anything to them, but having to ask permission to even post a preview picture was forbidden. I supported Nicky at this point because for what he was originally talking about (a preview picture of a background picture that is not even PART of the TABLE), he was 100% right.

5> The crap Nicky was having to put up with eventually pissed him off to the point where he said since he was already tried and convicted of distributing the Jetsons background picture even though he had only shown a small preview picture, he might as well go ahead and do what hey accused him of since they were hypocrites. He released the background picture on his own web site by itself as a PICTURE (no table included). I didn't see anything wrong with that either because it wasn't in any way Stein's table. A person would have to download the picure and apply themselves (which STILL isn't against the modding rules).


6> Things got worse yet for Nicky as a few people made it their job to try and crucify him. He in kind started flaming the hell out of them (I thought he went way too far and I stopped supporting his position). They then banned him and because of his attitude towards the end and it was hard to support him at that point since I agreed he went too far and I didn't think maintaining rev-histories or asking for permission was too much to ask and I didn't want to see locks implemented (but Black put them in anyway because he was pissed about the whole thing).

Nicky was right in the beginning, IMO, but personal attacks don't help your cause, IMO (although considering the way I've been treated lately when I've never attacked anyone on there before), I still have to agree he was right about them being HYPOCRITES. They attack and flame and they get away with it because they're the moderators (most of the people flaming him back then are the people that took the moderator jobs since then when they had a chance, so the NEXT time they could force their will on people personally).

7> AJ let Nicky come back under the terms that he would only post a link to his website in his signature and not release any unauthorized mods there directly.

As far as I can tell, Nicky kept his end of the agreement with AJ (the other moderators OBJECTED BIG TIME to these terms, though). AJ was really busy around this time and it looked to me as soon as he disappeared again on business, the moderators announced NEW MODDING RULES and a vote that would either let Nicky do whatever he wanted or give them reason to BAN him again. The "do whatever you want" rule was way too extreme and so it didn't quite get the vote (it was close though), but this ripped apart the RULES that AJ HIMSELF gave Nicky. They then banned Nicky in short order claiming (months later) that he said in a chat that he wouldn't follow the new rules (Nicky told me about that time that he said he would follow the rules AJ gave him as per their agreement).

Well, Nicky was banned again and AJ refused to comment all this time on why he was banned (oddly enough just like AJ refused to answer my own e-mail query as to why I was banned, even though I broke NO stated rules). So while AJ has seemed reasonable in the past, he continues to support his moderating staff with SILENCE. They do whatever they want to whomever they want for whatever reason they want and I can't support that.

That's a fairly accurate account (though naturally I dispute that I "went way too far" - if you actually read the vast majority of my posts at the time, they were angry, but rationally angry. Kinsey on the other hand called me, among other things, a "sodomising fucking rapist" without any censure).

However, unless we're thinking of very different things, PacDude is misrepresenting the vote which happened shortly before my last banning. There were only two choices in the poll, and while they were about half a page long, the options boiled down to:

1. Free mods* should be made completely illegal under all circumstances.
2. It should be completely illegal to make a free mod under any circumstances.

(*) ie without signed permission in triplicate from the person who first stole them from Williams/Bally/etc

It's now, slowly, becoming clear to everyone else what I realised about nine months ago. VP Forums is nothing but a mutual masturbation forum for the tiny clique of moderators - who, it should be noted, have produced about three table releases between them in those nine months.

I got booted for being "destructive", despite having produced rather more for the community than all the moderators put together.

(Incomplete list:)
http://ds.dial.pipex.com/thumbs_aloft/wos/history.htm

I broke none of the rules agreed with AJ, nor even any of the rules imposed after the "vote" - in which, incidentally, most people who disagreed with the moderators were banned from participating, and in which less than 1% of the VPForums membership took part. AJ has refused for months to answer any emails requesting the reason for the ban. The one referred to by PacDude is simply completely untrue - I haven't visited the VP chatroom in over a year, far less said what I'm supposed to have said there. A simple glance at a log would prove that.

PacDude, who hasn't even flamed anyone or released unauthorised mods, gets banned for simply disagreeing with the moderators.

Countless other authors and forum contributors have left, sick of the hideous atmosphere caused by the stupendously incompetent "moderation". (After all, a good moderator, like a good referee, is invisible.) There are practically no active authors left now on VPForums apart from Kristian (who has disagreed with the moderators on occasion, and will hence now be on their McCarthy-style hitlist now they've got rid of PacDude), Scapino and Destruk, none of whom are exactly prolific.

Discounting PacDude and Kristian's great updates of existing tables, there's hardly been a significant VPM release in months - Checkpoint is the last one I can think of. Almost anyone who might be able to take old tables and improve them - as happened on a daily basis before the current forum regime hijacked the community - has been either kicked out or driven away. The mods are keen on trumpeting how many people are signing up, but something like 0.6% of these people make so much as the occasional post, far less offer any practical contribution. Most of them, as you can see from the forums' own stats, don't even bother to READ any thread that isn't a table release, far less contribute to one. Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.

The moderators and admins of VPForums have DESTROYED the VP community. Of that there can be no argument. They haven't destroyed VP itself, though dark clouds appear to be gathering in that area too. But you only have to compare the lively, vibrant, release-filled forums of 18 months ago (where - hey, guess what? - everyone was simply trying to make the best recreations of pinball tables possible, rather than set themselves up as rule-wielding bureaucrats "controlling" something that had no need to be controlled and was doing just fine on its own) to the pathetic, empty, concrete Stalinist folly there now to see that it's true.

It's sad to watch the tiny handful of people left there running around ever more frantically and shouting ever more loudly among their ever-decreasing numbers in an attempt to pretend that all is well. Though it's at least nice to see that with the latest "debate" threads they've now abandoned all pretence that the rules are anything other than "Do exactly what we say all the time or we'll ban you." At least that's one form of hypocrisy they've given up trying to maintain.

I long since gave up caring what a bunch of dicks like them thought of me. I long since gave up going to a lot of trouble to provide a load of silent leeches with great VP table mods on my own webspace. I don't do many any more, but when I do I just keep them to myself and enjoy playing them.

There are almost no great VPM tables left undone that I'd like to see. It's hilarious to watch VPForums admins turning up here desperately trying to start fights under the mistaken impression that they can hurt or trouble me in any way. I've got all the VP tables, and all the self-respect, I'll ever need. It'll be nice if this forum turns into a viable alternative, but if it doesn't I won't really care. As it stands, the useless, hypocritical, arrogant, egotistical, and above all totally destructive "moderation" of VPForums has sucked all the fun and life out of the Visual Pinball community (though not out of Visual Pinball itself), and I have no interest in being in that community any more.

The same thing happened to the fruit-machine emulator forums based around the great MPU34 emulator a while back. The admins there had followed the VPF model, and watched as the pent-up repression inevitably exploded in a horrendous mess that saw SEVEN new alternative and competing forums set up in less than a week. Eventually they came to their senses and reopened the original Fruit Forums, but without all the censorship and banning. Everyone came back, everyone got back to talking about fruit machines, and when the odd argument arose, it blew itself over because people were allowed to argue freely about it, and everyone stayed friends (albeit friends who disagreed with each other sometimes) and the flow of releases continues to this day in a relaxed and friendly environment almost entirely free of bullshit politics. Sadly, I think the VPF staff are far too enamoured of their "power" to ever go back along the path of sanity. Hey ho.

(Blimey, this was going to be a two-line correction about PacDude's account of the poll. Guess I just wanted to post a proper obituary for the good old days when we just got together and made nice pinball tables.)

Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.

I'd rather 1,000,000 leeches to 1 up yourself turd like you.


> I long since gave up caring what a bunch of dicks like them thought of me.

Well this was one long ass speech for someone who doesn't care.

>above all totally destructive "moderation" of VPForums has sucked all the fun
> and life out of the Visual Pinball community (though not out of Visual Pinball
> itself), and I have no interest in being in that community any more.

I still have fun there and guess what... WE DON'T WANT YOU THERE.


> when we just got together and made nice pinball tables.)

YOU DIDN'T MAKE JACK SHIT!!!
You nicked other peoples work and without permission (most of the time).

You have got and will always get exactly what you deserve.

To read it for real - see the thread "Have it your way, folks" on VPForums:

http://www.vpforums.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10104

As far as hypocrisy relating to PDs ban - read this from the thread from Kid C:


Nobody should have to change anything if they don't want to.

1. Since the graphics (manipulated or not) are not the original conception of Nicky Special and are in fact the property of other owners (Bally, Williams, et al.) only the owners of said property has any legal basis for the removal of the graphics.

2. These mods or graphical enhancements were distributed freely to the public with no conditions of renumeration (through trade, service, or monetarily). Therefore there can be no revocation enforced. This is the equivalent of giving out free books and then later demanding that they be returned or paid for.

edited to add: Need a good Intellectual Property attorney? I've have several names if needed.

__________________
http://www.teslatheband.com - The Greatest Band in the Land!

Thirty-seven.

> Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.
>
> I'd rather 1,000,000 leeches to 1 up yourself turd like you.
>
>
> > I long since gave up caring what a bunch of dicks like them thought of me.
>
> Well this was one long ass speech for someone who doesn't care.
>
> >above all totally destructive "moderation" of VPForums has sucked all the fun
> > and life out of the Visual Pinball community (though not out of Visual Pinball
> > itself), and I have no interest in being in that community any more.
>
> I still have fun there and guess what... WE DON'T WANT YOU THERE.
>
>
> > when we just got together and made nice pinball tables.)
>
> YOU DIDN'T MAKE JACK SHIT!!!
> You nicked other peoples work and without permission (most of the time).
>
> You have got and will always get exactly what you deserve.
>
aussiepin sounds like he just wants to come over here and provoke even more.knows a lot bad language,but i doubt he;s capable of anything intelligent.probably belongs to the nra.it amazes me.they say they're glad pacdude is gone,yet come over to continue the war.and they said pacdude can't shutup

>>But you only have to compare the lively, vibrant, release->>filled forums of 18 months ago

*doh*
you mean like there were more tables to be recreated back then than there are today?!



your mother ate my dog :D
http://www.vp-lio.de.vu

> *doh*
> you mean like there were more tables to be recreated back then than there are
> today?!

Not even sure that's true - the version of VPINMAME that existed then supported far fewer games than the current one. There are still LOADS of games supported by VPM that haven't been converted, or have been converted to very basic standards and could do with a lot of improvement.

But even so, there were far more releases even of tables that had already been done, as people modded them freely and improved different areas of the table and incorporated other people's improvements too, all without anyone having to go round begging some self-appointed bureaucrats for "permission". As soon as people start doing anything, you'll always get some arsehole who says "We need to have rules and procedures and protocols about this." For many months, the VP community managed just fine without them. My "unauthorised" mods were massively popular, until a tiny handful of whingers managed to get their way, by using money and threats to buy power, and the community has been haemorrhaging authors ever since.

Look at the names in those early threads. Note how few of them are still producing releases. Note how few new authors have come in to replace them. None of those people quit because of an unauthorised mod made by me or anyone else. They quit because of the explosion of ill-feeling created by the tiny handful of people who decided to make a big fuss about the issue.

> Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.
>
> I'd rather 1,000,000 leeches to 1 up yourself turd like you.
>
>
> > I long since gave up caring what a bunch of dicks like them thought of me.
>
> Well this was one long ass speech for someone who doesn't care.
>
> >above all totally destructive "moderation" of VPForums has sucked all the fun
> > and life out of the Visual Pinball community (though not out of Visual Pinball
> > itself), and I have no interest in being in that community any more.
>
> I still have fun there and guess what... WE DON'T WANT YOU THERE.
>
>
> > when we just got together and made nice pinball tables.)
>
> YOU DIDN'T MAKE JACK SHIT!!!
> You nicked other peoples work and without permission (most of the time).
>
> You have got and will always get exactly what you deserve.
>
If you feel so strongly how about not doing it anonomosly?
I'm not doing it anonomously. I'm not concerned about retribution, why are you if you're so sure of yourself?

The new and improved King of Lamers 2002!

> Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.
>
> I'd rather 1,000,000 leeches to 1 up yourself turd like you.

I'd rather you put up or shut up. Only a total coward hides behind assumed names just to protect their "good name" somewhere else. What that tells me is that there is a total hypocrite on VPForums pretending to be mild-mannered that is in reality a total loser that likes to talk the talk, but won't walk the walk. I couldn't care less if you're Black, Cowboy, or someone I've never even noticed. It makes no difference. In the end you are worse than a leech. You are a parasite, trying to destroy the pinball community. Count this my first personal flame (against an anonymous coward that makes no pretense here about trying to tear the community apart and who probably contributes exactly NOTHING to the community while hounding those that do).

I always wanted to stay away from flames and arguments in this community but now I've had enough.

I will state my opinion here publicly. I also wrote this basic letter to various respected table authors on VPForums and added some text to it:

I think most people at VPForums are relatively new to Internet. They don't realize that there will always be some people who are annoying. Silencing them and censoring them will do much more harm than good. I created a Usenet community alt.games.mame 4-5 years ago (it's totally unmoderated) and there's an excellent spirit there. Grown up people don't need any "net nannies" to keep them in place. Especially all fine _adult_ people at VP Forums.

I think I'm going to create a Usenet community for Visual Pinball as well, and it would be 100% unmoderated. Maybe that would be a good alternative. The only problem is that I don't have access to Tin newsreader (That's essential tool in order to create a newsgroup. I don't have a shell account and I use work computer to connect to the Net.)
If someone emails me and have access to Tin, I could give him very specific instructions how to do it.

It's ironic. I think Nicky Special was right after all. The over-moderation is eventually going to destroy this community. It seems like they (moderators) are trying to spread bad spirit and ill-will _on purpose_. They're trying shut people up with censorship and threats. And we're talking about pinball here, which should be fun!!!

They act like a bunch of little children and they seem to get some kind of "power" when they can tell everyone who can play with their fancy little toys. And they don't even OWN the toys. We ALL do. Black owns VP with Randy, and he has total right to do with the program whatever he wants. But _nobody_ owns our work and our opinions. We're adult people and if someone wants to decide what we can say in a public _PINBALL_ forum, then there's something seriously wrong. It's not only wrong, it's completely SICK.

I'm here just to play & make tables and love it, and now these morons want to destroy that. This whole thing has nothing to do with PacDude, it's their (moderators) freakin' attitude. Like we all members were little kids or something! Basically, it looks like the _members_ exist in the VPForums so the moderators can massage their little fragile little net egos and feel powerful behind their safe little terminal. And it should be other way around.

Moderators should be there _for_ the members, and especially for the table authors. And what they do? They want to shut everyone up and ban every single one of them (except the ones who are too frightened to say what they really think, and kiss their ass).

It seems to me that for some people "moderation" status can be the only chance in life to feel "big". You know what I mean? I can't help it, but I get a feeling that frightened little boys and girls are running the big ship. And when the ship hits the rock they will prove wrong the old saying "rats leave the sinking ship". This time only rats will stay.

This is what one of our respected members wrote to me in PM:
"The same situation exists here with the Moderators. I suspect most have never held a position where they had authority over others and they just dearly love to use it."

And just for the record: I've heard from a reliable source that VP7 _will_ get released, and even if it didn't, we already have non-expirable VP6. So much for the doomsday talk.

When Nicky got banned year ago I didn't like it. I always liked Nicky and his mods. But that was _still_ quite acceptable, because I personally find the modding rules excellent. Nothing against Nicky in person (au contrary, I actually _like_ him and his humor) but Nicky didn't want to play with the rules. Fair is fair. But banning PD was a disgrace. Like I said, I know most table authors and I can assure you that they're _all_ equally disgusted as well. PD didn't break ANY rules, and treating a guy who has released many of the best VPM tables like that is a fuckin' joke. It's like spitting to his face after all the fine work he has made.

And if people _now_ don't have courage to stand up against this kind of TOTAL SHIT, they're not only fucking cowards, but also people who don't _deserve_ to gain _anything_ from this fine community. They don't even deserve to download new tables.

This has gone too far. The moderators should apologize, and allow opinions being expressed, or then the table authors are gone. And trust me, eventually they _will_ be gone.

They're threatening to ban a lot of respected members (even supporting members) from the forums because they posted their opinion of the current state of affairs. MrHide's and Rodgz's posts are getting censored. Another two great, contributing and very intelligent members. This is very soon going to get real nasty.

If they don't see what kind of mess they have created, they're not only blind, they're also extremely stupid.
Or then they want to destroy everything on purpose.
You decide.

What kind of table author wants to play with their
nazi-rules? And I am _not_ talking about the rules AJ made. I'm talking about their own "rules": Whoever disagrees with them have to go.

And trust me, if this policy won't change, we'll have to find alternative way to post our table release threads.
I probably get banned because I posted this opinion, but I don't give a damn. I've had enough of little piggy-eyed nerds who pretend to be big and powerful with their moderation status.

I say to ALL TABLE AUTHORS: Fight back now. Not against great people like Shiva or AJ, not against the fine community, but against the existing moderation rules.
Or be a coward and a sacrificial lamb. The decision is yours.

Kristian

> were angry, but rationally angry. Kinsey on the other hand called me, among
> other things, a "sodomising fucking rapist" without any censure).

You know what, I 100% believe it too. Kinsey has called me some pretty nasty things in private as well.

> However, unless we're thinking of very different things, PacDude is
> misrepresenting the vote which happened shortly before my last banning. There
> were only two choices in the poll, and while they were about half a page long,
> the options boiled down to:
>
> 1. Free mods* should be made completely illegal under all circumstances.
> 2. It should be completely illegal to make a free mod under any circumstances.

I recall "2" being more like you had to ask permisison first and/or wait 30 days. Even so, they DID change the rules *after* the vote. They pretended like the forums were suddenly a democracy, but it was all just propoganda designed to make a few "middle-ground" people feel better about their actions. You can plainly see by the outright censorship going on there right now that the place has NOTHING to do with the users. It *is* a powertrip for the moderators. They are clearly getting off by putting others down.


> I broke none of the rules agreed with AJ, nor even any of the rules imposed
> after the "vote" - in which, incidentally, most people who disagreed with the
> moderators were banned from participating, and in which less than 1% of the
> VPForums membership took part. AJ has refused for

I agree this is all true as well. Most people at VPForums *are* leeches and they don't give a crap about ANYTHING as long as they can download the tables SOMEWHERE. Of course they didn't care Nicky was gone. He opened up a site and released tables on a daily basis. They got to have their cake and eat it too for awhile there.

A few other members seemed to have the attitude if they didn't support the moderators, the community would fall apart or something. How ironic. It hasn't been two months since I left VPForums on my own and came back under some small pretense that they'd at least make an effort to deal with the mod forum better before they decided they didn't like my "posturing" and so they banned me from posting. Meanwhile they're all slandering me over there (TiltJP doing the slander and Kinsey laughing it up) and I can't even defend myself. I mean do I need to say more?

> PacDude, who hasn't even flamed anyone or released unauthorised mods, gets
> banned for simply disagreeing with the moderators.

I was disagreeing with a single moderator this time, although it had nothing to do with him being a moderator. I was having an argument with a KC about image usage and even then I hadn't released any table with those images and so they have no ground to stand on. KC even admitted this to me. Apparently one of the other moderators (probably Black/AussiePin) decided he was tired of me ranting and there you go. AJ supports this crap because he's afraid Black will cut of VP too. I couldn't give a crap about what Black does. It's not worth it. I'll leave the ass kissing to someone else (they seem to be doing a good job in the Happy Birthday Black thread on there right now; everyone is acting like Black made VP all by himself when Randy did most of the work. Black did a few thing for VP5 and a few things for VP6. Randy did all the rest and yet everyone seems to have forgotten all about Randy lately). Let's face it. The only reason I'm banned instead of getting a warning is they're deathly afraid Black will abandon VP and he got pissed in that WIP thread even though it had nothing to do with him.


> Countless other authors and forum contributors have left, sick of the hideous
> atmosphere caused by the stupendously incompetent "moderation". (After all, a

Just look at Worf's own comments there lately. He's been fed up for over 6 months now with the atmosphere there. He actually agreed with my debate forum comments that the place was not being run fairly and I've never seen anyone accuse him of anything before. Meanwhile, he barely bothers to check on VP these days and he used to be one of the most active members.

There are practically no
> active authors left now on VPForums apart from Kristian (who has disagreed with
> the moderators on occasion, and will hence now be on their McCarthy-style

I agree it wouldn't take much for Kristian to get banned next. He's on dangerous ground by being a so-called "modder" that improves existing tables. I don't think anyone would disagree that's he's getting darn good at it too, but I once got darn good at it also and look where it got me. I've fixed, updated and polished over 13 tables to virtual COMMERCIAL QUALITY (hell most of them are better than all the commercial games out there save ProPinball perhaps) and do I even get treated *fairly* on there? Hell no. I give and give and they treat me like crap. It reminds me of an old girlfriend. And she's NOT WORTH IT people.

But it amazes me still none-the-less that you hand these people a product that most fans of other genres could only DREAM of (accurate commercial quality FREE recrations of pinball tables) and they rip you apart in return. Utterly amazing. 3 years ago the Pinball community would have KILLED to have something like VP/VPinmame and now they take it for GRANTED. They act like another pinball release is "just another download" (the same thing happens with Mame these days and has been happening that way there for years). Do they have ANY IDEA how much *WORK* I've put into a single pinball release? I'm in peak form (efficiency wise) and the latest Dr. Who update of Krellan's already existing and working table still took about 100 HOURS. A year ago it would have taken me 500 hours. I spent 30 hours on the new Time Expander alone. If I was doing this as a commercial job, that's at least a couple of thousand dollars worth of work for ONE TABLE. Take TZ and TAF (probably a couple thousand hours between them over the past year and a half) and you can get some idea of the amount of time and effort that went into making and improving those 13+ tables! "Modder that slaps images on" my ass! It was pratically a 2nd job and one that I've never seen one penny for! And yet people finger point, posture and outright FLAME me because I disagreed a few times about some POLITICAL BULLCRAP on the forums?

I've never asked for or demanded a SINGLE THING for my table work, except maybe that people treat each other like human beings on there and make some effort to get along. If that means making the rules more friendly and with less red tape, than that's what I argued for. The moderators acted like I was trying steal the food out of their kids' mouths or something and most of them have never worked on a single table! They act like VP authors grow on trees over there. Hell get rid of such and such. We don't need him. We still got Scapino, after all! It may be awhile (that render method he uses looks very time consuming), but he seems to prefer the older '70s and '80s tables, though so don't get your hopes up for a Scapino Twilight Zone any time soon. That might be pretty hard to do with just decals and EMReels anyway, although Flash Gordon is pretty nice. I'm surprised it plays as well as it does though using all those drop walls for lights, etc.

> Discounting PacDude and Kristian's great updates of existing tables, there's
> hardly been a significant VPM release in months - Checkpoint is the last one I
> can think of. Almost anyone who might be able to take

I've seen Destruk claim he was leaving and then come back. He cranks out tables like crazy, but leaves others to finish them. Not a bad idea, really, but he doesn't get many takers because there aren't many authors out there to take them. He wants to see a table for every Rom, but to get someone to put the tender loving care something like Twilight Zone has recieved from multiple people you actually have to *care* about the table you're working on. That doesn't happen when you try to make tables assembly line style.


> contribution. Most of them, as you can see from the forums' own stats, don't
> even bother to READ any thread that isn't a table release, far less contribute
> to one. Thousands of leeches are not a sign of a healthy community.

Look at Mame. The only reason Mame still survives is that there are a core group of dedicated authors that do it for THEMSELVES. I found out long ago on that message board that if you don't contribute you don't get any say on future development. I didn't waste my time after awhile since I'm no C programmer. People flame over there just the same and whine and bitch and moan about games, but the core team have their OWN forum (an e-mail digest) away from the regular message board where they don't have to put up with BS from users, moderators or staff members.

But the thing with Mame is that the code is open and anyone is welcome to improve it. You can start your own modified version of the entire program if you want as long as you provide source code to the public. You can submit your changes to the other devs and if they like it, they'll include it in the official release. I've never seen devs there get upset when someone improves their Atari driver or whatever. Aaron Giles has been like a superstar over there, but I've never known him even to refuse improvements if someone provides them. I've tried to follow *his* example with VP. If wpcmame offers me a script rewrite, I take it because I know it's going to be better. I may have to adjust a few things, etc., but hey, it's for the TABLE and the TABLE is what matters. We're talking about a goal to recreate real pinball tables in simulation here and who wants to fight and bicker about who's version is better? The real table is better! If people would work together instead of arguing over ego matters, we'd a have more tables and less time writing these ridiculously long diatribes.....

> (Blimey, this was going to be a two-line correction about PacDude's account of
> the poll. Guess I just wanted to post a proper obituary for the good old days
> when we just got together and made nice pinball tables.)

I just heard an advertisement on the radio on the way home today and it was for having your own "professinoal quality gameroom" and they were pushing everything from slots to pinball tables. They even mentioned several available by name (Indiana Jones and Star Wars are the two that stuck out in my mind). Hell, I'm starting to think maybe I should direct my TIME and EFFORT into a real JOB that pays MONEY and then instead of making VP tables that people don't appreciate, I can go out and buy the REAL THING. Who needs VP when you have the real TZ sitting in your family room?

Nicky, I disagree with you on this one. I think modding rules are needed, and every single table author that I've contacted have been very positive and happy and gave me their permission to update their tables. Because they have seen my work and they know that I don't screw up their tables. Why shouldn't we respect other people's work? You might think differently and you're entitled to your opinion. But don't say that everyone should agree with you or you're guilty of having the same attitude as the VPF Moderators. Tsk tsk, Nicky. :)

The only exception was your Flash Gordon table. The whole release was partly a joke and nobody at VPForums complained about the unauthorized mod because it was YOUR table. :)

> Not even sure that's true - the version of VPINMAME that existed then supported
> far fewer games than the current one. There are still LOADS of games supported
> by VPM that haven't been converted, or have been converted to very basic
> standards and could do with a lot of improvement.
>
> But even so, there were far more releases even of tables that had already been
> done, as people modded them freely and improved different areas of the table and
> incorporated other people's improvements too, all without anyone having to go
> round begging some self-appointed bureaucrats for "permission". As soon as
> people start doing anything, you'll always get some arsehole who says "We need
> to have rules and procedures and protocols about this." For many months, the VP
> community managed just fine without them. My "unauthorised" mods were massively
> popular, until a tiny handful of whingers managed to get their way, by using
> money and threats to buy power, and the community has been haemorrhaging authors
> ever since.
>
> Look at the names in those early threads. Note how few of them are still
> producing releases. Note how few new authors have come in to replace them. None
> of those people quit because of an unauthorised mod made by me or anyone else.
> They quit because of the explosion of ill-feeling created by the tiny handful of
> people who decided to make a big fuss about the issue.
>

> I say to ALL TABLE AUTHORS: Fight back now. Not against great people like Shiva
> or AJ, not against the fine community, but against the existing moderation
> rules.

I'd LOVE to leave AJ out of it, but facts are facts here and I can tell you this much about AJ. I sent him an e-mail and a PM regarding the banning of my posting privleges and I've received NO REPLY from him on either occasion. I've checked his stats and he's been posting since both times and so he's giving me the silent treatment on purpose. Likewise, (and regardless of what anyone may personally think about Nicky), he never responded to Nicky's question of why he was banned a 2nd time when he followed AJ's own given rules for him. So I asked AJ myself what Nicky did. I got no reply to that either (and that was months ago before any of this latest crap).

AJ also silently endorses the rest of the staff and moderators' behavior by NOT DOING ANYTHING. He's well aware of my complaints about the way things were going two months ago and again now as I told him about it myself (in case he was too busy to notice what was happening to his forums). He has said nothing and done NOTHING. He is *JUST* as guilty of this controlling and anti-social behavior as any of the staff members, maybe even MORE so because he is the *one* person that could put an end to this nonsense by either forcing the staff to behave or replacing them with resonable people that aren't on some ego trip.

> Or be a coward and a sacrificial lamb. The decision is yours.
>
> Kristian

Well I'm starting right here. If I release things from now on it won't be on AJ's and it won't be on AJ's forums. The release will occur here (or somewhere else if we get something better set up). The ONLY way I will support AJ's or VPForums is if gets off his silent butt and *apologizes* for letting this crap go on and then does something about it. Anything less is meaningless at this stage to me.


I'm all for a newsgroup or a new web site or whatever people want. But I refuse to pander to the bologna goin on at VPForums anymore. I too wanted to believe the moderators were just trying their best to do their jobs and they are real people that make mistakes, etc, but it's become painfuly obvious that is NOT the case. They ARE on ego trips. They ARE flaunting their power and they are spitting in the face of you and I.

I'm not sure I even want to send uploads to FunHouse uploads. Some of the same people over there are in bed with the people at VPForums and it would make it too easy on the complacent types to stay where they're at.

I've been talking to many people and a few that are generally nice people and agree that what's happening is wrong also are AFRAID to rock the boat. Well that's a sinking ship people! You better stop worrying about rocking the boat and get the hell off of it before it does sink. Becaues once the authors are gone, VP is gone. Black cannot stop VP. VP6 exists. You can set your time back and it will keep on working (Vpinmame too). It would be easy to hack even to make that unnecessary (if all else fails). The *ONLY* thing that will kill pinball development is if all the developers leave. We can't count on Stern to make real machines even. But as long as there are people that CARE about pinball enough to do something about it, there will always be pinball around.

The best solution for everyone would be that the moderators sould get replaced with better ones. I mean intelligent adult people like Rodgz, MrHide, Apocalypse etc. etc.

I'd like to keep the current forum because that's where people go right now. Changing the forum would only rip the community apart, and we don't want that. I still care about the community. It's great and a few rotten apples should not spoil it.

I have three improved VPM tables almost ready. But I won't release _anything_ in VPForums until this mess gets cleared up and you get your posting rights back.

Not because I'm your biggest fan, but because what happened was totally WRONG.

And we Finns are not type of people who bend over and let our asses kicked without a good fight. Just ask those 300.000 dead Russians. :)

> The best solution for everyone would be that the moderators sould get replaced
> with better ones. I mean intelligent adult people like Rodgz, MrHide, Apocalypse
> etc. etc.

I might agree that would be the best solution and I would agree that your choices are reasonable.

The problem is that simply isn't going to happen UNLESS we do abandon VPForums. Look at Nicky's example with the fruit machine forums. AJ isn't even SPEAKING to me, let alone discussing moderation changes. And I'm afraid as long as Black is putting pressure on AJ, things aren't going to change. It would be better to have a separate table development and release forum APART from VPForums at the very least so that the two are NOT affected by each other exclusively.

Look at VPForums structure. All the topics are on the same forums. There was NO need to ban Nicky from the other forums even if it was deemed he wasn't following the table release rules. It's all or nothing there. None of this crap has anything to do with my table releases or work. Being banned means I can't posts tables or anything PERIOD. Even if they had a reason to take moderating action, banning isn't the correct decision. And it doesn't follow their own rules about warnings etc. Now they claim they don't have any such rules and that almost ANYTHING is cause for banning if they feel like it. They also let people like TiltJP outright flame while banning people like me when I have broken no rules.

So in theory, I like your idea, but unless it's made perfectly clear to AJ that this is 100% unacceptable behavior in his forums, things will NEVER change there and meanwhile people will just keep leaving the scene. We need to get those people to a forum where they aren't being repressed by totalitarian toxic fumes before they leave for good. I've got people sending me e-mail addresses to keep them informed of what's going on and any table development etc. And these are from people that are LEAVING VPForums because of what is going on. They obviously don't want to leave pinball. But they're tired of all the BS poltics there. We need to provide at least a temporary home for such people until this is straightened out. And if it's NOT straightened out, we need to start thinking about a permanant home apart from VPForums.

> I'd like to keep the current forum because that's where people go right now.

That's easily changed. We only need an announcement from one person that's not banned done in a polite manner that can't possibly be construed as posturing to get the word out. If they ban that, then they will only make their case worse and worse and worse. They are in the wrong and so they are on a very slippery downward slope.

> Changing the forum would only rip the community apart, and we don't want that. I

The only solution to decay is surgery. The community is already falling apart. It needs to be transplanted before it's too late. Sure we might lose a few people that think it won't work or some that insist of staying with the dying body, but it's better than letting the patient die. And that is the only alternative. You and I might have fun making tables for ourselves, Kristian, but we won't be seeing each others tables anymore because there won't be a community left.

> still care about the community. It's great and a few rotten apples should not
> spoil it.

The problem is that the few rotten apples are at the very top.

You shouldn't have clicked






CA public flashers group

[newsdee's CA website]

> Nicky, I disagree with you on this one. I think modding rules are needed,

Why, though? We've already seen where imposing rules gets us.

In all the endless months and months of flaming and banning and general bullshit around the issue, NO-ONE has ever managed to come up with an argument against this:

"If you don't like it, don't use it."

If someone releases a mod of your table and you like it, or like parts of it, that's great. You can use the parts you like in the next "official" update, the modder has saved you some work, you have more time to devote to your next work, the knock-on effect is good for everyone.

If you DON'T like their mod, so what? Ignore it. The people who do like it can play it if they want, so they're happy. And the people who prefer the original version can play that one, so they're happy too. Everyone's happy.

As long as mods are clearly identified as such, in the filename, zipname, script or whatever, as long as nobody's trying to pretend that a mod is an official version when it isn't, what possible harm can a mod do to anyone? None. "Respect" is a total red herring used by some people to cover up their egomania.

Remember, if the "rules" had been in place before all the BS, it would have made NO DIFFERENCE at all, because it all blew up over a simple backdrop which was SEPARATE to a table, not a mod, and which wasn't even released when all the shit hit the fan anyway. Even now, that backdrop doesn't break any of VPF's "rules". For months and months, nobody objected to unauthorised mods in the slightest. Only the hysterical reaction of a few individuals who effectively blackmailed the entire community ("Do what I want or I QUIT!!!!!!!!!!") changed the view. I said at the time such egomania would only lead to the destruction of the community, and look how right I was.

If we're going to try to replace VPForums, I think we ought to be learning from their mistakes...