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SubjectIt's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/03/02 09:01 PM



As someone said on VPForums, it is NOT a democracy there. So, if we want a democracy for VP and Pinball in general, then it's time to build one. We need a community that's based on mutual respect, not rules made by a tiny few or by one person that owns a site.

Moderation probably isn't needed. The community should shun those that break "rules" of respect, taste or other behavior. Before VP had locks, if someone "stole" someone's table and acted like they made it, this was pointed out and that person was embarassed. Would they even WANT to show their face again? I still believe that MOST of the pinball playing world is a cut above the "typical" beat-em up video game type. I'm talking more intelligence and more appreciation for art, not just violence. I'm not saying Mortal Kombat isn't a fun game. I'm saying unlike some people we know there are BETTER games out there as well. Games like Twilight Zone and Medieval Madness. Pinball may be a dying art, but it'll never be dead as long as we care about it.

VP isn't going anywhere. VP6 can be used indefinitely. The expiration date is easily defeated (either by setting your clock back or by a simple hack). So it doesn't matter if Randy or Black don't visit whatever new forum we might create. They've always done their own thing with VP itself. It is we the community that have decided how to USE VP to make art, whether it be table creation or table REcreation. So there is NO FEAR of a rocked boat, but rather we need to find a NEW boat. An unsinkable boat. One that a small handful of people or even one person can't destroy at a whim. And we need to build this boat now *before* what's left of the community self-destructs under the totalitarian regime of VPForums where unjustified censorship has become the norm these days.

So, what I propose here is we discuss the possibilities of a new forum. Should we use an unmoderated newsgroup? This message board? A new message board? A community sponsored web site? These are thing the community is going to need to decide. This forum will due for now, but it's clearly less structured than VPForums was set up to be. Both VPForums and ShivaSite are both controlled by an indivdual and therefore unaccetpable if what we want to create is a SOLID community that is not easily broken.

MAME has all kinds of support boards and web sites and even though the main forum for Mame is moderated, they have mananged to deal with people over the years without having to BAN them at every turn or even censor their posts. So MUCH information goes through there compared to most message boards, that it's not even around long enough to worry about a few "wankers."

But that's just one example. The overriding concerns for any new community base is that we have a place to discuss VP and pinball in general and a place to release the tables at (storage). These can be structured or these can be left to individuals or shared. Or we could do the newsgroup approach. It's up to you, but something will need to be done or the VP community will fall completely apart save the leeches and ass-kissers, neither of which are very good at building VP tables.






SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted bykristian
Posted on12/03/02 09:28 PM



Someone, just give me access to Tin. I could use someone's password to his shell for 10 minutes and you've got yourself a new newsgroup. alt.games.mame is _extremely_ busy place and I'm well respected and liked over there. It could be our "sister" newsgroup. We could probably draw a lot of people from Mame to the new newsgroup.

If you don't want to give me password, then someone with access to Tin should drop me an email to kristiantanner@hotmail.com. You will get idiot-proof instructions of the newsgroup creation. You only have to be familiar with Tin newsreader.

Edit: I don't think Usenet newsgroup would be the best solution but we can do it anyway. I think the best solution would be a place like this:
http://www.pinballmania.net/indexe.html

with upload engine and message board. _All_ VPM tables at the same place, plus uncensored message board is all we need. This place can't handle too much traffic in downloads, so maybe we could limit the download the same way as AJ does.


SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/03/02 09:43 PM



> Someone, just give me access to Tin. I could use someone's password to his shell
> for 10 minutes and you've got yourself a new newsgroup. alt.games.mame is

Hmmm. I've got it on my Linux partition. I'm not sure that a discussion newsgroup is a better solution than the message board you linked, but there ALREADY IS a *binary* pinball newsgroup out there and that could make a VERY good compliment to an unmoderated message forum.

> Edit: I don't think Usenet newsgroup would be the best solution but we can do it
> anyway. I think the best solution would be a place like this:
> http://www.pinballmania.net/indexe.html
>
> with upload engine and message board. _All_ VPM tables at the same place, plus
> uncensored message board is all we need. This place can't handle too much
> traffic in downloads, so maybe we could limit the download the same way as AJ
> does.

Maybe something like that would be a good HQ, so-to-speak and the archived tables could go there (with limits on them). Meanwhile we could get some volunteers (or even the table authors if they're willing to double upload) to send a copy across the binary pinball newsgroup (which wouldn't affect bandwidth on the site).






SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People Reply to this message
Posted bykristian
Posted on12/03/02 09:53 PM



The problem with binary newsgroups are that most people don't know how to download from there. It's just too difficult. If we want to offer an alternative, it should be extremely user-friendly. Just like Pinmame table station.

I've been exchanging emails with the owner of this site and seems to be very friendly guy. I have a terrible work schedule right now and I have no time to do it, but if someone could drop him an email and suggest him to read these boards... That place could easily become top VP/M center if the table authors start only releasing their new tables there.

And like someone said, 99% of the community are just people who grab the new tables and run. They don't care about anything. They just want wares. :)

Nothing wrong with that. That's just the fact. And if most VPM releases go to another place they will follow. You can be 100% sure of that.




SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted by_Parallax_
Posted on12/03/02 11:59 PM



Well, reading whats been said and what I've seen, I agree with you guys. Things DO have to change. Im shocked that Rodgz was banned!! He was really polite too! :(

If there is going to be a new forum you guys are gonna start and a new place to get updated tables, Im in. I want to help any way that I can.

I may not be a whiz with VP. Heck, I dont even know where to start on how to use the program. But Im willing to learn. My ultimate goal is to be able to create tables, and/or help update tables.

Also, PacDude, I would like to receive updates about tables you are working on (as you mentioned about in a previous post. Something about people sending you their email addresses). How can we work that out?

Be happy guys, because you just got one supporter! :)




SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/04/02 00:43 AM



> Well, reading whats been said and what I've seen, I agree with you guys. Things
> DO have to change. Im shocked that Rodgz was banned!! He was really polite too!

I got news for you. It was all PLANNED. I'd show you the entire PM from KC at this point if my entire account hadn't been deleted where he absolutely confirms there is a conspiracy to get rid of certain people. Those new rules are just excuses to ban people without cause. My entire VPForum account is now gone, not just posting privileges. They're a bunch of cowards.

> Also, PacDude, I would like to receive updates about tables you are working on
> (as you mentioned about in a previous post. Something about people sending you
> their email addresses). How can we work that out?

They should appear right here for now unless they magically get this forum banned as well.






SubjectREALITY CHECK new Reply to this message
Posted bynewsdee
Posted on12/04/02 01:25 AM



> Moderation probably isn't needed.

Yaniel anyone?




CA public flashers group

[newsdee's CA website]


SubjectRe: PROZAK CHECK new Reply to this message
Posted byLord Ashram
Posted on12/04/02 01:30 AM



> > Moderation probably isn't needed.
>
> Yaniel anyone?

he was beyond moderation (proxies). and the cure was not an easy one either.



--------------------------------------



SubjectRe: MMMM... PROZAK... new Reply to this message
Posted bynewsdee
Posted on12/04/02 01:34 AM



> > Yaniel anyone?
>
> he was beyond moderation (proxies). and the cure was not an easy one either.

But no moderation doesn't leave out thousands of potential yaniel wannabees.
Unless you expose everybody to a gaping anus until the flames stop. ^^








CA public flashers group

[newsdee's CA website]


SubjectRe: MMMM... PROZAK... new Reply to this message
Posted byPacDude
Posted on12/04/02 02:00 AM



> > > Yaniel anyone?
> >
> > he was beyond moderation (proxies). and the cure was not an easy one either.
>
> But no moderation doesn't leave out thousands of potential yaniel wannabees.
> Unless you expose everybody to a gaping anus until the flames stop. ^^

Well maybe someone that the community trusts could do light moderation in extreme cases. I'm referring more to the censorship thing.





SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted byPinball Ken
Posted on12/04/02 02:01 AM



> > Well, reading whats been said and what I've seen, I agree with you guys.
> Things
> > DO have to change. Im shocked that Rodgz was banned!! He was really polite
> too!
>
> I got news for you. It was all PLANNED. I'd show you the entire PM from KC at
> this point if my entire account hadn't been deleted where he absolutely confirms
> there is a conspiracy to get rid of certain people. Those new rules are just
> excuses to ban people without cause. My entire VPForum account is now gone, not
> just posting privileges. They're a bunch of cowards.
>
> > Also, PacDude, I would like to receive updates about tables you are working on
> > (as you mentioned about in a previous post. Something about people sending you
> > their email addresses). How can we work that out?
>
> They should appear right here for now unless they magically get this forum
> banned as well.
>
Which is why I took the stance I did, PacDude, and posted what I did. It was to start a debate about you and get you reinstated, worded in a way the moderators wouldn't delete it immediately!

There I said I didn't dislike you, and now you're talking complete sense at last, having out the rants aside (and I don't blame you for ranting, I'd do the same in your place), I can say it again.

The only problem I have is I don't have any solutions, other than to support you all in your endeavours. I've no technical nous and my 'finishing' of tables was purely correcting things overlooked by authors.

PK


Subjectin that case new Reply to this message
Posted bynewsdee
Posted on12/04/02 09:07 AM



> Well maybe someone that the community trusts could do light moderation in
> extreme cases. I'm referring more to the censorship thing.

Go and use the Slashdot engine (available in Sourceforge in Perl - edit: it's Slashcode). You cannot censor messages, but only moderate them with a score by random users every day. At worst, the troll posts can be seen but not if the individual reader chooses not to.




CA public flashers group

[newsdee's CA website]


SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted bymaddanno
Posted on12/04/02 04:08 PM



There is already alt.binaries.emulators.pinball
I put that up last year (via Xnews trick and my ISP) when Shivasite and the forums were down.
I think alt.games.visualpinball or the like would be a good idea.
Granted we would need a better place for the long term holding of tables but the Usenet is good for discussion and news on releases.




SubjectI Agree new Reply to this message
Posted byIce Warm
Posted on12/04/02 07:35 PM



I agree. If we want it to be a democracy maybe we should have the members vote on who the moderators are and so on.


SubjectRe: It's Time to Start Over People new Reply to this message
Posted bykristian
Posted on12/04/02 10:08 PM



> They should appear right here for now unless they
> magically get this forum banned as well.

Don't underestimate those people. They're BIG and POWERFUL. :)





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