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SubjectFor y'all who have problems w/center shots Reply to this message
Posted byVeggieH8R
Posted on05/11/01 01:10 AM



Increase the flipper speed to 0.11 and reduce flipper power to 2. The control becomes just like the real deal. Someone posted this in the VP forum but i lost the it so I don't know who to credit for this great tip. Works beautifully with MM, TAF, I500, AFM, and ST:TNG.

-Never underestimate....."The Power"- Rod Sterling


SubjectRe: For y'all who have problems w/center shots new Reply to this message
Posted bymetallik
Posted on05/11/01 08:46 AM



> Increase the flipper speed to 0.11 and reduce flipper power to 2. The control
> becomes just like the real deal. Someone posted this in

Well, those settings help (they're a LOT better than the defaults) .. but it's still a far cry from the "real deal." I've spent hours tweaking with the flippers, and have come to the conclusion it's impossible to improve the accuracy much past how AFM is, due to VP's inability to handle fast flippers.

Here's the problem in a nutshell: On a real machine, when the flipper is activated, the bat snaps to the up position almost immediately. You can't see the rotation around the base.. the movement is so fast. If the ball is feeding from the inlane at anything close to a normal speed, the player can flip early and send a good, strong shot directly up the playfield. If the ball is cradled and then immediately flipped, it's even possible to shoot apprx 5 degrees "backhand" of staight up (although usually not strong enough to make a ramp). The aiming area of the flipper should range from straight up the playfield, to about 60-70 degrees off-horizontal. Shots such as Dr Who's "collision," Monster Bash's swamp creature, MM's catapult, etc. have to be made as the ball is rolling off the tip.. these represent the low end of the range.

The problem is, if you set the flippers in VP fast enough to make shots from the base accurate, it really screws things up. Shots from the middle of the bat have a strange tendancy to come off as ultra-backhands, and shots from the tip oftentimes are so fast, they "break" the virtual table by flying off ramps, etc. It appears VP doesn't take the weight of the ball into consideration... on a real machine, shots from the end of the bat don't come off at mach 5 because the furthur down the bat the ball is, the more power is needed just to propel it since it's furthur from the fulcrum. The bat still snaps to position, but the shot power is reduced. Even if this was fixed, the problem with VP being unable to accurately simulate a very snappy flipper still remains.. On a VP-only table, with little overhead, one can make faster flippers (up to a point), but with PinMame running, fast flippers more often than not equal wierd physics.

The best setings I've found are apprx 0.135 speed (this starts to push things a bit), and a strength of 1.85 - 2.0. The best "feeling" flippers I've been able to make are the ones on AFM .. I think since they're smaller than most, they tax the engine less and therefore are more realistic. Angles are important also.. currently the angle of the flipper at rest and in the up position need to be a few degres "higher" than normal to help up the middle.

Hopefully, Randy will introduce a newer VP with a bit more robust flipper support, although I'm not sure how doable that will be.. VP+PinMame requires a lot of CPU.. and there's a lot of calculations that need to be done VERY quickly when a player flips the ball. It'd be great if more CPU could be devoted to the flippers though.. basically, it doesn't matter how nice the playfield art is, or how accurate the table was recreated, or what cool tricks one employed to simulate the playfield toys.. if the flippers suck, the game's no fun. Just like the real thing.


SubjectRe: For y'all who have problems w/center shots new Reply to this message
Posted bysellenoff
Posted on05/11/01 11:49 AM



Thanks for the info metallik-

In your opinion, can these things be fixed by Randy?

Also, what are your thoughts on ProPinball's flippers?

-Steve

> > Increase the flipper speed to 0.11 and reduce flipper power to 2. The control
> > becomes just like the real deal. Someone posted this in
>
> Well, those settings help (they're a LOT better than the defaults) .. but it's
> still a far cry from the "real deal." I've spent hours tweaking with the
> flippers, and have come to the conclusion it's impossible to improve the
> accuracy much past how AFM is, due to VP's inability to handle fast flippers.
>
> Here's the problem in a nutshell: On a real machine, when the flipper is
> activated, the bat snaps to the up position almost immediately. You can't see
> the rotation around the base.. the movement is so fast. If the ball is feeding
> from the inlane at anything close to a normal speed, the player can flip early
> and send a good, strong shot directly up the playfield. If the ball is cradled
> and then immediately flipped, it's even possible to shoot apprx 5 degrees
> "backhand" of staight up (although usually not strong enough to make a ramp).
> The aiming area of the flipper should range from straight up the playfield, to
> about 60-70 degrees off-horizontal. Shots such as Dr Who's "collision," Monster
> Bash's swamp creature, MM's catapult, etc. have to be made as the ball is
> rolling off the tip.. these represent the low end of the range.
>
> The problem is, if you set the flippers in VP fast enough to make shots from the
> base accurate, it really screws things up. Shots from the middle of the bat
> have a strange tendancy to come off as ultra-backhands, and shots from the tip
> oftentimes are so fast, they "break" the virtual table by flying off ramps, etc.
> It appears VP doesn't take the weight of the ball into consideration... on a
> real machine, shots from the end of the bat don't come off at mach 5 because the
> furthur down the bat the ball is, the more power is needed just to propel it
> since it's furthur from the fulcrum. The bat still snaps to position, but the
> shot power is reduced. Even if this was fixed, the problem with VP being unable
> to accurately simulate a very snappy flipper still remains.. On a VP-only table,
> with little overhead, one can make faster flippers (up to a point), but with
> PinMame running, fast flippers more often than not equal wierd physics.
>
> The best setings I've found are apprx 0.135 speed (this starts to push things a
> bit), and a strength of 1.85 - 2.0. The best "feeling" flippers I've been able
> to make are the ones on AFM .. I think since they're smaller than most, they tax
> the engine less and therefore are more realistic. Angles are important also..
> currently the angle of the flipper at rest and in the up position need to be a
> few degres "higher" than normal to help up the middle.
>
> Hopefully, Randy will introduce a newer VP with a bit more robust flipper
> support, although I'm not sure how doable that will be.. VP+PinMame requires a
> lot of CPU.. and there's a lot of calculations that need to be done VERY quickly
> when a player flips the ball. It'd be great if more CPU could be devoted to the
> flippers though.. basically, it doesn't matter how nice the playfield art is, or
> how accurate the table was recreated, or what cool tricks one employed to
> simulate the playfield toys.. if the flippers suck, the game's no fun. Just
> like the real thing.
>





SubjectRe: For y'all who have problems w/center shots new Reply to this message
Posted bydeep2
Posted on05/11/01 12:00 PM



> Where do you edit the flipper speed and power settings?

Is it in the wpc.vbs script? or in the individual scripts?
Or someplace else?




SubjectPossible Solution? new Reply to this message
Posted bycrazypablo100
Posted on05/11/01 03:01 PM



What would the physics look like?

Could A script be written and inserted just as the flipper keycode is registered that would "SIMULATE" the real physics, by altering the flipper speed and power depending upon the balls position in relation to the flipper?

I am pretty good with VB, but terrible with physics.



SubjectRe: For y'all who have problems w/center shots new Reply to this message
Posted byVeggieH8R
Posted on05/11/01 04:20 PM



Click the Options button on the playfield grid and click on the flipper (each one is different). there should be values on the right.

-Never underestimate....."The Power"- Rod Sterling


SubjectRe: For y'all who have problems w/center shots new Reply to this message
Posted bymetallik
Posted on05/12/01 01:14 PM



> Thanks for the info metallik-
>
> In your opinion, can these things be fixed by Randy?
>
> Also, what are your thoughts on ProPinball's flippers?

Well, I think only Randy would know if they can be fixed.. I'd think they could be though. At least, some of the glitches that occur (such as the ball going through the flipper when you try to drop-catch.. also the ball sometimes "sticking" to the end of the flipper) .. seems to be collision-detection issues. Perhaps the ball is moving a unit or two *into* the flipper while some pinmame code is being processed, and when VP gets priority again, it sees the ball overlapping the flipper just as it drops, and flings it down.

I don't want to talk down VP - it's an awesome program - Just that, if improvements are to be made, the flippers should get priority. I believe the paragraph here: http://www.marvin3m.com/wpc/index3.htm#flip pretty much sums it up.

As for Pro Pinball, they're pretty good.. my one real complaint is that there is a very brief, but noticeable delay between when you hit the key, and the flipper fires. Many of my PP shots are late because the timing's off, but it's not too bad.

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